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More expensive houses less people vote conservative


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11 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

No for making houses more expensive and life harder for young people.

Are you big a Saracens fan by the way?

 

How many 10 year olds are posting on this site?

I know the Tories are stupid but if Labour are claiming that for 13 years they voted for someone who was not Labour and didn't know  it - they make even Teresa May look clever - which is tricky.

 

New Labour weren't remotely like any of the other Labour governments I've lived under.

Which is probably how and why they ended up with Corbyn I suppose.

They were Tory Lite really.

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Yes I agree but I think it has improved for most overall. Housing as an aside (and evidence provided that housing takes up about the same % of salary as the average over the past 30 years. 

There's some crap ahead for sure but I'm betting it's ZIRP, possibly NIRP and inflated off. I cannot see a case for tax rises in the current climate. 

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=London-England%3A-London/Salary

depends where you are i guess. 37k lends you about 150k max and well we all know how far that goes. 

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New Labour weren't remotely like any of the other Labour governments I've lived under.

Which is probably how and why they ended up with Corbyn I suppose.

They were Tory Lite really.

It says a lot about the Labour party that they campaigned for a Tory Lite Government - they must be really really thick.

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IRA responsible for about 1,700 deaths versus roughly 100 for Muslim extremists in UK. But just saying each period has a load of good and bad to enjoy and suffer. IRA blew up pubs, cars, highstreets, royals, politicians. Far more organised and dangerous that the rabble of extremism we have today (thank god!)

Yes we agree, the deposit is lower and easier to save for given higher bank rates for sure. BUT... the portion of household income devoted to mortgage payments is roughly now what it is at the average% for the last 30 years. But there's a huge element here of people just not saving. My whole office seem to be on the PCP car club treadmill. Everything on the never never. There does seem to be a definite preference for living purely in the moment rather than making real plans and sacrifices for the future. Anecdotally I know of people who will spank a credit card plus savings on 'travelling' (imho a slumming and protracted holiday) or go to an unrated uni, incur £50k debt just for the uni experience. Cretinous behaviour of anyone wanting to buy a place in the longer term - these guys all sit in that younger category right now. 

If people want to buy they can still do so. Remote working is a reality (especially now with covid accelerating it) and there are many lovely and cheap areas of the UK. I'm looking at Norfolk and Isle of Wight for my next move so I'm by the sea and possibly mortgage free. 

Homeownership overall is slightly lower (on average() than it was in 2001. But I'm more interested in the changes over time since the 1960s and trying to understand the influences there since all the graph says is young people ownership is level with the 1960s. So the good old days weren't so good, rather it was the good old 1990s for youngsters at least. 

Terrorism has affected us in other ways than just death, concrete blocks everywhere and of course it is 100 and counting.

 

 

BUT... the portion of household income devoted to mortgage payments is roughly now what it is at the average% for the last 30 years.

I don't think that is relevant new buyers buy the most expensive they can afford.  If prices had not risen from 97 to 2001 when I bought.  I could have spent 33% PCM less or bought a flat without drug takers in the block - I know which I would have done.

 

 

My whole office seem to be on the PCP car club treadmill. Everything on the never never. There does seem to be a definite preference for living purely in the moment rather than making real plans and sacrifices for the future. Anecdotally I know of people who will spank a credit card plus savings on 'travelling' (imho a slumming and protracted holiday)

PCP is a new thing.  However I know people who would do that in the 90s - and now they own nice homes.

To hear some people (not you) you would think that before 2000, young people never spent money on any luxuries and that the best place to meet a girl was at the library - because that was the only form of entertainment that young people did before 2000.

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Plus open boarders.

Plus not building anything on the countryside because it's green. 

Taken individually each topic in their manifesto looks great but after some more in depth reading you see that certain policies are at odds with each other.. .as you point out. 

No carbon economy. No nuclear power... I'm not saying I love nukes and I would like to minimise the impact but until we've cracked the storage problem and have enough renewables able to deliver a constant load I think they're a necessary evil. That's just another example. 

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Terrorism has affected us in other ways than just death, concrete blocks everywhere and of course it is 100 and counting.

 

I don't think that is relevant new buyers buy the most expensive they can afford.  If prices had not risen from 97 to 2001 when I bought.  I could have spent 33% PCM less or bought a flat without drug takers in the block - I know which I would have done.

 

PCP is a new thing.  However I know people who would do that in the 90s - and now they own nice homes.

To hear some people (not you) you would think that before 2000, young people never spent money on any luxuries and that the best place to meet a girl was at the library - because that was the only form of entertainment that young people did before 2000.

To be honest that's a very good point. If people are always maxing themselves (which is my experience of myself and most of my friends) then you'd expect them to always be paying the maximum per month. 

True, if those items weren't around in the pre 2000 era then people couldn't spend the cash on them. I just think there's a shift away from people pushing themselves to buy nowadays (not saying that's a good or bad thing and it's possibly a consequence of higher prices). My partner for instance has had very well paid jobs in the past and worked internationally. Now she works for a charity and gets paid very poorly (certainly for the hours she keeps and the work she does) but she'd given up on ever buying. Those big pay cheques before were spent on exploring, travel, adventures, fun etc. She's been almost everywhere you can think of. 

Pre 2000 people were of course heading out, I remember when almost every town had a cattle market night club... sad to see they've closed down most of them. Different times. 

All that said, without sounding like a boomer, I did sacrifice a lot of material things to keep saving. I lived at home far longer than most of my friends to the point it was embarrassing. I don't think buying a house was ever easy (with the possible exception of those graduating uni in 1990 and finding themselves in a well paid job just as houses became the most affordable they've ever been) and I from many on here it sounds like they expect to be able to just buy a house without a mortgage. I do know someone that did this.. .bought a house for £100k but it took him 5 years to finish renovating it. He probably spent about £70k on it and a significant amount of time while living in either  a van or a building site. Now he's got a lovely place but it's out in the Forest of Dean and his family and most of his older friends are out in Surrey still. 

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True, if those items weren't around in the pre 2000 era then people couldn't spend the cash on them. I just think there's a shift away from people pushing themselves to buy nowadays (not saying that's a good or bad thing and it's possibly a consequence of higher prices).

I know people a little bit older than me who bought in the 90s and they didn't push themselves to buy.  In fact often it was cheaper to buy than rent.  I remember buying in 2001 and looking at how much it would cost to rent rather than buy and I was actually better of by buying than renting.

 

 

To be honest that's a very good point. If people are always maxing themselves (which is my experience of myself and most of my friends) then you'd expect them to always be paying the maximum per month. 

 

Thank you

 

 

I did sacrifice a lot of material things to keep saving. 

Ditto - although if I had bought a few years earlier I would have been better off than if I had never saved.

 

 

Plus not building anything on the countryside because it's green. 

Taken individually each topic in their manifesto looks great but after some more in depth reading you see that certain policies are at odds with each other.. .as you point out. 

No carbon economy. No nuclear power... I'm not saying I love nukes and I would like to minimise the impact but until we've cracked the storage problem and have enough renewables able to deliver a constant load I think they're a necessary evil. That's just another example. 

I agree with that.  The greens are very contradictory.

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I know people a little bit older than me who bought in the 90s and they didn't push themselves to buy.  In fact often it was cheaper to buy than rent.  I remember buying in 2001 and looking at how much it would cost to rent rather than buy and I was actually better of by buying than renting.

 

Thank you

 

Ditto - although if I had bought a few years earlier I would have been better off than if I had never saved.

 

I agree with that.  The greens are very contradictory.

This is the dilemma. Even having bough ta little over three years ago I'd have to borrow an additional £70kish I think to buy this place. I had a few sleepless nights before I bought but now I'm glad I do not rent. Mortgage is £1,240/month which is about what I'd be paying on my first flat in the Reading area (nice flat though on private road north of the Thames). So even now (or three years ago anyway) it was about the same. I think rents are taking a bit of a kicking now though certainly in areas where the air bnb brigade have had to look at longer term rentals to make ends meet. 

For almost every run of a few years you'd have been better off (exceptions end of 1980s and around 2007) but generally the trend is up (or as I see it debasement of the currency - I have a theory that almost everything is deflating and therefore the currency needs to become worth less at the same rate but there are some exceptions like housing/land etc). 

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Taken individually each topic in their manifesto looks great but after some more in depth reading you see that certain policies are at odds with each other...

This probably applies to all political parties.

I also think that a lot of people look at Green Party policies as being unrealistic but are failing to take a long term view. I don't think anyone in the Green Party is suggesting these things can be done within 5 years and I like the honesty of that.

Also, much like the LibDems, the Green Party are unlikely to gain significant numbers of MPs in the near future but if greater numbers vote for them it pushes their policies onto the agenda. I used to vote Lib Dem and have never voted Labour/Tory, but now the Green Party are the only option that my conscience will allow.

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This probably applies to all political parties.

I also think that a lot of people look at Green Party policies as being unrealistic but are failing to take a long term view. I don't think anyone in the Green Party is suggesting these things can be done within 5 years and I like the honesty of that.

Also, much like the LibDems, the Green Party are unlikely to gain significant numbers of MPs in the near future but if greater numbers vote for them it pushes their policies onto the agenda. I used to vote Lib Dem and have never voted Labour/Tory, but now the Green Party are the only option that my conscience will allow.

I could never vote for any party that wants open borders without saying a) how many people will come here b) how they will be housed.

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Has it really? Putting aside everything going to sh1t in the 70s (a temporary issue, just as 2020 being a crappy year is) I'd certainly be alive then rather than now. It's got better if you're a shallow materialist but that's about it.

Maybe if you're a middle class straight white male there doesn't seem to be any progress since 1970....other groups might disagree.  For example, back in the 70s it was perfectly fine to pay somebody less just because they were female, or to prosecute two gay 20 year olds for having sex with each other.  

Life expectancy in 1970 was just 72, and is now 82.  Foreign holidays were a middle class thing; in non COVID years they are now within the reach of most people.  Thanks to Labour we now have a minimum wage and a freedom of information act.  Thanks to the Tories we have a Northern Ireland peace agreement.

You're writing on the internet - an amazing technological advance not available in 1970.

So no thank you, I absolutely would NOT go back to 1970 if I had the chance.  2000 maybe at a push, if I wanted to bask in pre-9/11 innocence just one more time, and sneak in a house purchase before the crazy rises of 2002-3.

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Maybe if you're a middle class straight white male there doesn't seem to be any progress since 1970....other groups might disagree.  For example, back in the 70s it was perfectly fine to pay somebody less just because they were female, or to prosecute two gay 20 year olds for having sex with each other.  

Life expectancy in 1970 was just 72, and is now 82.  Foreign holidays were a middle class thing; in non COVID years they are now within the reach of most people.  Thanks to Labour we now have a minimum wage and a freedom of information act.  Thanks to the Tories we have a Northern Ireland peace agreement.

You're writing on the internet - an amazing technological advance not available in 1970.

So no thank you, I absolutely would NOT go back to 1970 if I had the chance.  2000 maybe at a push, if I wanted to bask in pre-9/11 innocence just one more time, and sneak in a house purchase before the crazy rises of 2002-3.

I've (a) said that the 70s were a bit of a crappy period, and (b) never claimed that anything's ever been perfect, or that there have been no improvements. There certainly has been progress, and in some areas very significant beneficial progress. But unless you were in a group who really suffered badly from the prejudices at the time (not the majority - might've been worse to be a woman then, true, but not in the same category as being gay) then you need to be generally pretty lazy and materialistic, and indifferent to your surroundings, to really appreciate the world today. The internet's a fun toy.

The 80s and 90s were definitely better than the 70s though, the 90s probably being the best decade in my lifetime.

I know some people love their ridiculous gimmicks to make things "easier and more convenient" that were barely any effort anyway. I know some people are indifferent to the plague of increasing development and tacky, ludicrous "modernisation" that's pissed all over character in the name of worshipping the trivial, I know some people love being protected from risks that were never that great in the first place if they didn't act like an idiot, and to such people, those with sod all ability to actually appreciate the world they live in anyway, it must seem great now (Covid-19 excepted), I know some people are only capable of looking at the world through a very simple black and white all good or all bad filter. But I'm damned glad I'm not one of those.

Indeed I think I've covered all those points you mentioned, although perhaps it wasn't in this thread.

Edited by Riedquat
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The 80s and 90s were definitely better than the 70s though, the 90s probably being the best decade in my lifetime.

I feel the same...but since I can't disentangle the what's objectively better from what my teenage brain enjoyed (it's a measurable medical fact that teenagers feel an enhanced sensation of pleasure compared to adults) I simply don't have a brain that can reliably judge what the 90s were like, so I can't properly comment.

My parents were teenagers in the 60s and so - quelle surprise - they think THAT'S the best decade of THEIR lifetime.

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I feel the same...but since I can't disentangle the what's objectively better from what my teenage brain enjoyed (it's a measurable medical fact that teenagers feel an enhanced sensation of pleasure compared to adults) I simply don't have a brain that can reliably judge what the 90s were like, so I can't properly comment.

My parents were teenagers in the 60s and so - quelle surprise - they think THAT'S the best decade of THEIR lifetime.

Fair enough to that, it's entirely possible that I'm making the same bias (although from what I know of the 60s that sounds pretty good too, before then I think being able to appreciate the world would've required a lot of money to be able to see beyond the immediate hardships, even WWII notwithstanding). I think it's fair to objectively say that there was quite a bit of optimism in the 90s compared to now, what with the fall of the Berlin wall just before and the USSR breaking up, and those social issues you mentioned definitely being in retreat.

I'm pretty sure though that even the changes since the 90s I like I could very easily live without if I had to (and things hadn't changed to make it harder to get by with something that didn't even exist then, or at least was not widespread). If you want examples of inventions I definitely wouldn't want to do without, which really improved lives I'd go with things like a functioning sewage system and the fridge/freezer.

I do know though that the things that give me the most joy, the places I'm happiest in, tend to be the ones with the least modern stuff in them. There's your improved modern world IMO, where it's kept that but thrown out the real downsides that used to go along with it. Throwing out the bad without having added much new - that's the best, hence why I like living in a 19th century house with hot water, electricity, and sewage (although before the last of those I suppose the canal would've been handy...)

Edited by Riedquat
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I think it's fair to objectively say that there was quite a bit of optimism in the 90s compared to now, what with the fall of the Berlin wall just before and the USSR breaking up, and those social issues you mentioned definitely being in retreat.

1995-1999 was an optimistic period for sure.

1990-1994 included all sorts of things that weren't at all optimistic: a huge recession, the ERM crisis, interest rates shooting up to 15%, Freddie Mercury (and a lot of other people) dying of AIDS

The last 10 years have the same sort of pattern, but in reverse:

2010-2015 included the financial crisis gradually retreating, the enjoyable London Olympics, Barack Obama's progressive policies

2016-2020 then went seriously downhill with Donald Trump, the divisive EU Referendum and COVID.

So **right now** is a terribly depressing time, but not really representative of most of the last 50 years.  And if anything, the corner of the depression will soon be turned with Joe Biden, a vaccine, and Brexit being at least resolved (however it ends up being resolved).

As to what brings you personally happiness and whether that's old or new stuff - well, that's just personal opinion.

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1995-1999 was an optimistic period for sure.

1990-1994 included all sorts of things that weren't at all optimistic: a huge recession, the ERM crisis, interest rates shooting up to 15%, Freddie Mercury (and a lot of other people) dying of AIDS

The last 10 years have the same sort of pattern, but in reverse:

2010-2015 included the financial crisis gradually retreating, the enjoyable London Olympics, Barack Obama's progressive policies

2016-2020 then went seriously downhill with Donald Trump, the divisive EU Referendum and COVID.

So **right now** is a terribly depressing time, but not really representative of most of the last 50 years.  And if anything, the corner of the depression will soon be turned with Joe Biden, a vaccine, and Brexit being at least resolved (however it ends up being resolved).

As to what brings you personally happiness and whether that's old or new stuff - well, that's just personal opinion.

In 2011 we found out that thousands of girls had been abused by grooming gangs and the press and police had ignored it.

That was not a very optimistic time for those who had not realized that the police would ignore stuff like.  In some ways things are better now than then because the Jay report has published it.

In some ways things are better now than under Obama, UAE and Sudan have signed peace with Israel - that is wonderful.

(Shame about Covid)

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