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More expensive houses less people vote conservative


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Fair enough, but here's the worst part, you're not able to do that, you're into the here and now so make the most of it. 

For what it's worth I think we live at an incredible time. Commercial space travel, quantum computing, the ability to make vaccines in nine months for new diseases. We stand on the edge of a fantastic time. 

Going back in time I think I'd be bored out of my mind frankly. Travel expensive, knowledge hard to come by and terrible local cuisine. 

Do you often insult people you disagree with or is it just a consequence of being super angry about something you cannot change?

If you want insulting I'm quite happy to insult people who think mostly a bunch of trivial distractions makes for a great life (medical improvements aren't but most of the rest are), and who is incapable of not being bored without them. Still, I guess if they keep you too distracted from thinking they're doing you a favour.

That was insulting someone I disagree with. The post you were responding to was a general statement of opinion of certain groups of people, not an insult pointed at anyone in particular.

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If you want insulting I'm quite happy to insult people who think mostly a bunch of trivial distractions makes for a great life (medical improvements aren't but most of the rest are), and who is incapable of not being bored without them. Still, I guess if they keep you too distracted from thinking they're doing you a favour.

That was insulting someone I disagree with. The post you were responding to was a general statement of opinion of certain groups of people, not an insult pointed at anyone in particular.

Ah apologies I thought you were saying I'm a materialist (actually pretty far from the trust tbh). 

There's an element of give the plebs the shiny shiny to keep them distracted but it depends what you're doing and your persona. Go back 50 years and we wouldn't have this forum, so we'd most likely be campaigning for a three day week or conspiring the assassinate Arthur Scargill. 

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Sort of a new age of opening up, free trade and enlightenment. I think that trend will continue despite the odd bump here and there. 

Staggering that people are of the belief that life is worse now than at any time in the past (baring obvious exceptions for war and the 3 day week etc). 

On pretty much any level, entertainment, the internet, reliability and safety of cars, efficacy of modern medicine etc etc. Plenty to be glad about. 

Who said anything about "any time in the past"?

Cars have been sufficiently reliable and safe enough for years to not be a reasonable concern. Finding entertainment hasn't been an issue for decades. The internet's nice as a toy, and ridiculous that it's wormed its way everywhere.  Meanwhile general surroundings have declined into an ever-increasing characterless mess, things have got busier, more developed, stressful, we're constantly treated like children and pushing for having less to do with our fellow human beings. None of the "improvements" can beat a pleasant stroll through pleasant surroundings followed by a few drinks in the pub.

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Oh you want numbers?

Ownership rate through the age. Goodness something must have gone wrong with human genome for the below 34 year olds. No evidence of systemic issue here. 

Since 1961 home ownership rates have decreased for successive  age groups below the age of 65, particularly those aged 25 to 34

What are these numbers showing is and how is this historical data comparable to modern living situations? Whenever in modern history has it been possible for a single nurse to buy a house? It may have been an aberration in small number of years from about 1996 to 2001, but certainly not histrorically. How many single nurses were buying houses in the 1980s as opposed to buying as a married couple do you think? so why now is there a sense of entitlement that whatever <inset tug on the heart strings profession here> should be able to afford a property as a single person? 

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Ah apologies I thought you were saying I'm a materialist (actually pretty far from the trust tbh). 

There's an element of give the plebs the shiny shiny to keep them distracted but it depends what you're doing and your persona. Go back 50 years and we wouldn't have this forum, so we'd most likely be campaigning for a three day week or conspiring the assassinate Arthur Scargill. 

Well I do get pretty worked up about it all, so I'm prone to lash out (I wondered about deleting my above post after seeing that reply - thanks for the apology). The simple fact is though that personally speaking I do find where we are now and where we're going depressing, the majority of the claimed gains doing little for me and having little problem with where things were, so it's hard to find much positive and easy to find negatives. I actually like a slightly grubby, somewhat hands on world. I don't want it to go to extremes - certainly no return to Victorian working conditions thank you! - but a good element of keeping things fairly hands on and simple really does make me happy. Or perhaps that's not always quite the right word - satisfied might be better, even with things like household chores (not that you'd know from the usual pile of washing next to the sink). There's a big but subtle element of satisfaction in getting simple, straightforward things done in surroundings that tick exactly the right aesthetic boxes.

Interesting that you mention a three day week though, IMO if we were to have had any benefits from the technological change it should've been to be working less whilst maintaining living standards.

If you want some examples of changes I genuinely do think are improvements (already agreed with medicine) I'll go with rivers that aren't open sewers or chemical drains any more and shifts in social attitudes wrt things like racism, sexism, and homophobia.

Edited by Riedquat
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I understand it completely. It shows ownership declined in the youngest from the early noughties onwards. That tells you what has happened and not why it happened. It also tell you that home ownership has grown from a very low base in the 1960s and on average it is higher today than at almost any point in the last sixty years. Again, it doesn't tell you why that is. 

Another ad hom. Frankly, you can't debate, you've failed to support any assertions or even add to the conversation beyond cheap shots and no substance. 

I got into my position through hard work and a lot of sacrifice. Maybe my personality had something to do with it too, I'm actually pretty self deprecating. 

Because I've interacted with you before, or a clone of you, many times.

You're so convinced of your own success and anyone who doesn't have the ability to buy the same house is just a whinging entitled youngster that you will never change your view no matter what. You're emotionally invested in the image of yourself which clouds your ability to be objective.

I've made the arguments before, go do some digging or just listen to some other posters on here who are trying to educate you.

If you can't handle it, ****** off elsewhere.

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What are these numbers showing is and how is this historical data comparable to modern living situations? Whenever in modern history has it been possible for a single nurse to buy a house? It may have been an aberration in small number of years from about 1996 to 2001, but certainly not histrorically.

Glad to see you admit that it was easier for the previous generation to buy than it is for the current. That's what we're debating here so good on you.

And it wasn't a small number of years, that is untrue.

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Given the choice I'd prefer a bit earlier (the stuff I really dislike was getting pretty well established far enough back that I wouldn't want to put up with the living and working conditions of that time, so it's always a balance), but I agree that period was a pretty good time. The 80s was certainly a good time to be a kid.

I finished my apprenticeship in 1982 - then straight into IBM as a typewriter mech anic moving on to systems remember the HR manager apologising that we wouldn't get a pay rise within the first three months because of how our induction dates fell - happy days ...

Straight through IBM then onto Granada group (so through three corporations in less than ten years and all the investment in me that entailed) and onto my own business

That's what's disappeared effectively the ability to better yourself through career progression 

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Over what timescale are you talking? 

Growing up (in the 1980s) while we did have a detached house (three bedder and dad extended it doing a lot of DIY to make five as we're a family of six) we had one car, no mobiles, no holidays (honestly not ever one holiday).

Fast forward to me being my dad's age when I was a kid and I have a detached house, one car, plenty of holidays and pretty much anything else I want. 

To be honest I do find that the issue is increasingly an entitlement one. 'It's my right to buy a house for 1950s money on a 2020 salary, and drive a car without being taxed, or pay any tax, tax should be optional. and it's my right for NHS healthcare and for the state or some virtue signalling footballer to look after and feed my kids'.

The take, take entitlement attitude doesn't reinforce the work and pay and contribute ethics and it would seem the slope is a very slippery one and with policy and spending on some ratchet. 

To your points on HTB there are various schemes across other nations. The USA I'm more familiar with. during the GFC you could post your keys to the bank, walk across the street and buy the identical house for half the mortgage you use3d to owe. They even have a term for it 'Jingle Mail'. If you bought a house in the aftermath you received all your income tax back in the form of a rebate for that year. If you build a house you're allowed (certainly in some states if not all) to offset the cost in your tax return. 

Average Joe needs to grab himself by the lapels and shout into the mirror "I'm a tiger grrrrrrr" until he can get out there and make something of himself. 

My next house is likely to be a celotex flatpack but I'll bespoke it.

No entitlement at all, older generations had it far easier financially its laughable. 

parents first house 1966 £4k 3 bed semi, sold it 1975 £17k 4 bed detached bought 1975 £30k sold it 2006 £850k bought 4 bed detached 2008 £640k  current value who knows others have sold 1.3m last 3 years, might be more now. 

dad died 30 years ago next year and mother paid of mortgage the same year 1991.  its all been gravy since 1975

mortgage paid off in 1991 to own outright 7k 🤣  house was valued at 350k in 1991 during the probate. 

boomers financial life was easy my mother has not worked for 25 years at least and she is 75. 

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No entitlement at all, older generations had it far easier financially its laughable. 

parents first house 1966 £4k 3 bed semi, sold it 1975 £17k 4 bed detached bought 1975 £30k sold it 2006 £850k bought 4 bed detached 2008 £640k  current value who knows others have sold 1.3m last 3 years, might be more now. 

dad died 30 years ago next year and mother paid of mortgage the same year 1991.  its all been gravy since 1975

mortgage paid off in 1991 to own outright 7k 🤣  house was valued at 350k in 1991 during the probate. 

boomers financial life was easy my mother has not worked for 25 years at least and she is 75. 

Out of interest, were they in the top, say, 5% of earners?

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Out of interest, were they in the top, say, 5% of earners?

no idea owned a restaurant for 30 years before that. others i know of did far better than this. 

i think he left about 300k back in cash plus the house so about 650k ish then was that rich then ? no idea.

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Because the IRA, Jimmy Saville and crazy interest rates to defend the pound on the dumb as **** ERM never happened?

There's many differences between my dad and I (thankfully lol) but to blank life has got worse for everyone over time is just fallacy. 

The IRA were bad - but they didn't bomb concert full of children like Muslim terrorists do.  I used to go to rock concerts in the 90s - and we never thought that they would get bombed.

You are right about Jimmy Saville - how did the BBC ignore that?  

BTW if you were a home buyer those interest rates were wonderful.  High interest rates are not as bad as they sound for FTB it makes saving so much cheaper.  In my road a 10% deposit is now £40K in 97 it was £6K - a massive difference.  I saved £400 on my paper round in the 80s - so you can see the difference

 

Now you're showing me a graph demonstrating how home ownership across almost all age groups is broadly the highest it has ever been (that's the grey line). 

 

 

Home ownership is lower than it was in 2001 if I am reading that  graph right.

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No entitlement at all, older generations had it far easier financially its laughable. 

parents first house 1966 £4k 3 bed semi, sold it 1975 £17k 4 bed detached bought 1975 £30k sold it 2006 £850k bought 4 bed detached 2008 £640k  current value who knows others have sold 1.3m last 3 years, might be more now. 

dad died 30 years ago next year and mother paid of mortgage the same year 1991.  its all been gravy since 1975

mortgage paid off in 1991 to own outright 7k 🤣  house was valued at 350k in 1991 during the probate. 

boomers financial life was easy my mother has not worked for 25 years at least and she is 75. 

Yes and no buying electronics is a lot easier now.  I knew kids in the 80s without a phone in their house.

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Because I've interacted with you before, or a clone of you, many times.

You're so convinced of your own success and anyone who doesn't have the ability to buy the same house is just a whinging entitled youngster that you will never change your view no matter what. You're emotionally invested in the image of yourself which clouds your ability to be objective.

I've made the arguments before, go do some digging or just listen to some other posters on here who are trying to educate you.

If you can't handle it, ****** off elsewhere.

You seem to know an awful lot about me for someone that doesn't know me at all. 

Literally zero substance. Nil. Zlich. Look at the intersections with the other posters on here and see how it's supposed to be done. 

Meaningful narrative and analysis can be a difficult skill so don't be so hard on yourself. 

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Glad to see you admit that it was easier for the previous generation to buy than it is for the current. That's what we're debating here so good on you.

And it wasn't a small number of years, that is untrue.

Your chart (again) shows only the symptom not that it was easier or harder. Back in the 1960s people left school at 14 so had ten years work under their belt by age 24. These days most have a few years at best. Interporal comparison is not useful.

What you've not done is looked at the chart I posted that demonstrated mortgage costs as a % of take-home. That's the true affordability for all without substantial cash sums. 

What about pre 1960s? When ever before that date was ownership so widespread. What we are possibly witnessing is a longer term blip of ownership that's trending back towards consolidating housing in fewer and fewer hands as it was historically. I'm not saying that's a good thing but to pain a picture that this is something new for this generation only isn't accurate in the slightest. 

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You seem to know an awful lot about me for someone that doesn't know me at all. 

Literally zero substance. Nil. Zlich. Look at the intersections with the other posters on here and see how it's supposed to be done. 

Meaningful narrative and analysis can be a difficult skill so don't be so hard on yourself. 

You are a bunch of characters on a screen to me. I can only form an opinion based on those characters. If you want me to have a different opinion of you then try not to say stupid things like "you've shown me a grey line that says home ownership is as high as it has ever been".

It's nothing personal, you just say stupid things, as others have pointed out too.

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No entitlement at all, older generations had it far easier financially its laughable. 

parents first house 1966 £4k 3 bed semi, sold it 1975 £17k 4 bed detached bought 1975 £30k sold it 2006 £850k bought 4 bed detached 2008 £640k  current value who knows others have sold 1.3m last 3 years, might be more now. 

dad died 30 years ago next year and mother paid of mortgage the same year 1991.  its all been gravy since 1975

mortgage paid off in 1991 to own outright 7k 🤣  house was valued at 350k in 1991 during the probate. 

boomers financial life was easy my mother has not worked for 25 years at least and she is 75. 

Anecdote is not the singular of fact.

I did ask over what timescales you're talking and you've picked a starting point of the golden era (the boomer) all unfunded. What about before that? Are we saying that everyone should have it as easy as the boomers? Is that not entitlement? Is that even affordable?

Looks like you'll inherit a lot more than me. Good for you. 

There are women on final salary pension s that were only ever housewives. Back then much harder work no doubt. 

I'd still take being born when I was (1980s). 

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The IRA were bad - but they didn't bomb concert full of children like Muslim terrorists do.  I used to go to rock concerts in the 90s - and we never thought that they would get bombed.

You are right about Jimmy Saville - how did the BBC ignore that?  

BTW if you were a home buyer those interest rates were wonderful.  High interest rates are not as bad as they sound for FTB it makes saving so much cheaper.  In my road a 10% deposit is now £40K in 97 it was £6K - a massive difference.  I saved £400 on my paper round in the 80s - so you can see the difference

 

Home ownership is lower than it was in 2001 if I am reading that  graph right.

IRA responsible for about 1,700 deaths versus roughly 100 for Muslim extremists in UK. But just saying each period has a load of good and bad to enjoy and suffer. IRA blew up pubs, cars, highstreets, royals, politicians. Far more organised and dangerous that the rabble of extremism we have today (thank god!)

Yes we agree, the deposit is lower and easier to save for given higher bank rates for sure. BUT... the portion of household income devoted to mortgage payments is roughly now what it is at the average% for the last 30 years. But there's a huge element here of people just not saving. My whole office seem to be on the PCP car club treadmill. Everything on the never never. There does seem to be a definite preference for living purely in the moment rather than making real plans and sacrifices for the future. Anecdotally I know of people who will spank a credit card plus savings on 'travelling' (imho a slumming and protracted holiday) or go to an unrated uni, incur £50k debt just for the uni experience. Cretinous behaviour of anyone wanting to buy a place in the longer term - these guys all sit in that younger category right now. 

If people want to buy they can still do so. Remote working is a reality (especially now with covid accelerating it) and there are many lovely and cheap areas of the UK. I'm looking at Norfolk and Isle of Wight for my next move so I'm by the sea and possibly mortgage free. 

Homeownership overall is slightly lower (on average() than it was in 2001. But I'm more interested in the changes over time since the 1960s and trying to understand the influences there since all the graph says is young people ownership is level with the 1960s. So the good old days weren't so good, rather it was the good old 1990s for youngsters at least. 

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You are a bunch of characters on a screen to me. I can only form an opinion based on those characters. If you want me to have a different opinion of you then try not to say stupid things like "you've shown me a grey line that says home ownership is as high as it has ever been".

It's nothing personal, you just say stupid things, as others have pointed out too.

That's all that chart shows. It shows % ownership across age groups and the average. Average ownership is roughly as high as its been since 1960 (according to that chart). It's back where it was in the 1960s for the youngest demographic. So when people are harking back to the good old days.... what's so good about it? Unless you're referring to a golden era in the 1990s when property was dirt cheap (because the country was smashed with the fallout from ERM and a recession. 

I'm guilty of saying stupid things for sure. We all are. 

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It wasn't my chart "global leader of a tech firm".

Makes sense, you're adding nothing else to this conversation either. 

What do you do for a living out of interest? 

Earlier you called me uneducated and a troll which I now believe to be a projection. 

Let me guess the format for your response:

Ad hom, I can go post somewhere else (like this is your pet topic and you're not a troll), vacuous unsubstantiated comment and a final ad hom?

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Anecdote is not the singular of fact.

I did ask over what timescales you're talking and you've picked a starting point of the golden era (the boomer) all unfunded. What about before that? Are we saying that everyone should have it as easy as the boomers? Is that not entitlement? Is that even affordable?

Looks like you'll inherit a lot more than me. Good for you. 

There are women on final salary pension s that were only ever housewives. Back then much harder work no doubt. 

I'd still take being born when I was (1980s). 

Sorry I can only judge by my experiences. Generally life is supposed to improve is it not regardless of time frame? It's the pigeonhole economic system is why HPC exists.

Who knows if I will inherit anything furlough and bounce loans need to be paid and savings eroded to dust first.

 

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What are these numbers showing is and how is this historical data comparable to modern living situations? Whenever in modern history has it been possible for a single nurse to buy a house? It may have been an aberration in small number of years from about 1996 to 2001, but certainly not histrorically. How many single nurses were buying houses in the 1980s as opposed to buying as a married couple do you think? so why now is there a sense of entitlement that whatever <inset tug on the heart strings profession here> should be able to afford a property as a single person? 

This is so true. My dad bought a house in 1995 for half of what the original owner had paid for it (docklands). 1995 - 2000 was indeed the bottom of the UK's biggest housing crash and it's weird how people on this site paint that period as 'normal'. IT was not.

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Sorry I can only judge by my experiences. Generally life is supposed to improve is it not regardless of time frame? It's the pigeonhole economic system is why HPC exists.

Who knows if I will inherit anything furlough and bounce loans need to be paid and savings eroded to dust first.

 

Yes I agree but I think it has improved for most overall. Housing as an aside (and evidence provided that housing takes up about the same % of salary as the average over the past 30 years. 

There's some crap ahead for sure but I'm betting it's ZIRP, possibly NIRP and inflated off. I cannot see a case for tax rises in the current climate. 

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