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Who wins trump or Biden?


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13 hours ago, Quiet Guy said:

Has it occurred to you that the cult is actually the anti-Trump movement? In earlier posts, I commented on the inability to look at other perspectives. When you start using pejorative terms to describe someone you disagree with, it doesn't really help your argument.

I don't think I've ever used the phrase 'fake news'.

No, because the hardcore Trump supporters, who appear to run into millions have many of the recognised cult characteristics. By contrast, there is no such thing as an anti-Trump cult - anti-Trumpers include the majority of the world's population and are drawn from across the political spectrum.

Trump followers are obviously not like a hardcore religious cult, and is decentralised, but is still dangerous and destructive for those caught up in it.

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20 minutes ago, miguel said:

All Trump needs to say is that he won and that the election was stolen from him. That's it, nothing more, there is no other requirement that his base needs to justify that 'fact'. None. It is sufficient that Trump has said it. 

That is a cult. 

I've posted the following before, but this part of the 'BITE' model it clearly applies to Trump cult members:

Thought Control
1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
2. Change person’s name and identity
3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating

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44 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

No, because the hardcore Trump supporters, who appear to run into millions have many of the recognised cult characteristics. By contrast, there is no such thing as an anti-Trump cult - anti-Trumpers include the majority of the world's population and are drawn from across the political spectrum.

Trump followers are obviously not like a hardcore religious cult, and is decentralised, but is still dangerous and destructive for those caught up in it.

I don't know that I really agree with that. There's definitely a body of people who look at Trump and everything he does and reject it with an almost religious fervour - "Trump said it, it's bad!," not because they've looked at what he says and seen it as ridiculous obnoxious drivel (although a lot of it is, especially right now), but because Trump said it, no more. It's like the earlier Creationism vs Evolution discussion (I think that was this thread).

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19 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

I've posted the following before, but this part of the 'BITE' model it clearly applies to Trump cult members:

Thought Control
1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
2. Change person’s name and identity
3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating

Pick any contentious issue today and you'll find both sides using many of those, or at least that's the level we hear of it (can't rule out a more reasonable majority who have given up on trying to have a discussion because of it all). Probably why they all seem to end up being labelled "the <x> cult."

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20 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

I've posted the following before, but this part of the 'BITE' model it clearly applies to Trump cult members:

Thought Control
1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
2. Change person’s name and identity
3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating

I would say it's Gaslighting

 

People who engage in gaslighting are habitual and pathological liars. They will blatantly lie to your face and never back down or change their stories, even when you call them out or provide proof of their deception. Lying is the cornerstone of their destructive behavior. Even when you know they are lying, they can be very convincing. In the end, you start to second-guess yourself.

verywellfamily

 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgement. It may evoke changes in them such as cognitive dissonance or low self-esteem, rendering the victim additionally dependent on the gaslighter for emotional support and validation. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs.

Instances can range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents occurred, to belittling the victim's emotions and feelings, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim. The goal of gaslighting is to gradually undermine the victim's confidence in their own ability to distinguish truth from falsehood, right from wrong, or reality from delusion, thereby rendering the individual or group pathologically dependent on the gaslighter for their thinking and feelings.

wikipedia

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5 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Pick any contentious issue today and you'll find both sides using many of those, or at least that's the level we hear of it (can't rule out a more reasonable majority who have given up on trying to have a discussion because of it all). Probably why they all seem to end up being labelled "the <x> cult."

The Stonehenge A303 tunnel project is contentious, but I doubt you would consider the various sides involved in it a cult.

You do not get one side seriously believing that the bulk of the other side are satanic paedophiles. The hardcore Trump fan base is clearly more extreme than on most issues, particularly in their willingness to detach themselves from reality.

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1 minute ago, rollover said:

I would say it's Gaslighting

 

People who engage in gaslighting are habitual and pathological liars. They will blatantly lie to your face and never back down or change their stories, even when you call them out or provide proof of their deception. Lying is the cornerstone of their destructive behavior. Even when you know they are lying, they can be very convincing. In the end, you start to second-guess yourself.

verywellfamily

 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgement. It may evoke changes in them such as cognitive dissonance or low self-esteem, rendering the victim additionally dependent on the gaslighter for emotional support and validation. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs.

Instances can range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents occurred, to belittling the victim's emotions and feelings, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim. The goal of gaslighting is to gradually undermine the victim's confidence in their own ability to distinguish truth from falsehood, right from wrong, or reality from delusion, thereby rendering the individual or group pathologically dependent on the gaslighter for their thinking and feelings.

wikipedia

I think gaslighting applies more to an unwilling victim, whereas here we have a huge number of people who are willingly letting themselves be psychologically manipulating and then taking it forward enthusiastically to new extremes.

But ultimately we are still talking about the psychological manipulation of a group of people and stymieing their ability to think rationally.

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16 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

I don't know that I really agree with that. There's definitely a body of people who look at Trump and everything he does and reject it with an almost religious fervour - "Trump said it, it's bad!," not because they've looked at what he says and seen it as ridiculous obnoxious drivel (although a lot of it is, especially right now), but because Trump said it, no more. It's like the earlier Creationism vs Evolution discussion (I think that was this thread).

They probably do because when you are dealing with a deeply unpleasant narcissist like Trump, it is probably easier to just reject whatever he says rather than seeking out the odd bit here and there that isn't insane. Yeah, say what you like about Trump but at least he didn't start another war etc.

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16 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

The Stonehenge A303 tunnel project is contentious, but I doubt you would consider the various sides involved in it a cult.

You sure? I see signs of cult-like behaviour in both the "must build more stuff everywhere, got to make everything faster and more modern" brigade and the "cannot touch anythings," and I know I generally look like one of the latter (although perhaps weirdly not in that particular case).

Although perhaps it's not so much cult as the hopelessly simple and extreme level to which most debates have descended, which results in a degree of cult-like appearance. Which in turn reinforces itself.

Edited by Riedquat
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Isn't it known as 'Hypernormalisation'?

Quote

“HyperNormalisation” is a word that was coined by a brilliant Russian historian who was writing about what it was like to live in the last years of the Soviet Union. What he said, which I thought was absolutely fascinating, was that in the 80s everyone from the top to the bottom of Soviet society knew that it wasn’t working, knew that it was corrupt, knew that the bosses were looting the system, know that the politicians had no alternative vision. And they knew that the bosses knew that they knew that. Everyone knew it was fake, but because no one had any alternative vision for a different kind of society, they just accepted this sense of total fakeness as normal. And this historian, Alexei Yurchak, coined the phrase “HyperNormalisation” to describe that feeling.

 

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3 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

You sure? I see signs of cult-like behaviour in both the "must build more stuff everywhere, got to make everything faster and more modern" brigade and the "cannot touch anythings," and I know I generally look like one of the latter (although perhaps weirdly not in that particular case).

Although perhaps it's not so much cult as the hopelessly simple and extreme level to which most debates have descended, which results in a degree of cult-like appearance. Which in turn reinforces itself.

I don't think its reasonable equivocate "don't build a road near a world heritage site" to "the USA is secretly run by a cabal of satanic paedophiles". Yes, debates do tend to become a bit "us and them" by the very nature of having two sides with differing opinions, but the detachment from reality is what really makes the hardcore Trump supporters stand out.

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23 minutes ago, rollover said:

I would say it's Gaslighting

 

People who engage in gaslighting are habitual and pathological liars. They will blatantly lie to your face and never back down or change their stories, even when you call them out or provide proof of their deception. Lying is the cornerstone of their destructive behavior. Even when you know they are lying, they can be very convincing. In the end, you start to second-guess yourself.

verywellfamily

 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgement. It may evoke changes in them such as cognitive dissonance or low self-esteem, rendering the victim additionally dependent on the gaslighter for emotional support and validation. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs.

Instances can range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents occurred, to belittling the victim's emotions and feelings, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim. The goal of gaslighting is to gradually undermine the victim's confidence in their own ability to distinguish truth from falsehood, right from wrong, or reality from delusion, thereby rendering the individual or group pathologically dependent on the gaslighter for their thinking and feelings.

wikipedia

Thinking about this again, there certainly are elements of it on display, particularly through the very active engagement of foreign actors to create further irrationality - we know that a large number of the Twitter and Facebook accounts were Russian bot accounts, pumping out large numbers of posts every day, either originating or reposting.

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3 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

You sure? I see signs of cult-like behaviour in both the "must build more stuff everywhere, got to make everything faster and more modern" brigade and the "cannot touch anythings," and I know I generally look like one of the latter (although perhaps weirdly not in that particular case).

Although perhaps it's not so much cult as the hopelessly simple and extreme level to which most debates have descended, which results in a degree of cult-like appearance. Which in turn reinforces itself.

I am sure that if you extend the definition of cult far enough you could probably just about included everyone. They are all based on belief systems that can, if you scratch hard enough, be found wanting.

Your example of growth culture is actually a good one. It highlights 'mans' need to innovate and change, adapt but brings it into conflict with sustainability.

With Trump you have this belief that he is the only strong man that should be president, which comes up against the constitution and some bad precedents from the past about how this potentially plays out. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

I don't think its reasonable equivocate "don't build a road near a world heritage site" to "the USA is secretly run by a cabal of satanic paedophiles". Yes, debates do tend to become a bit "us and them" by the very nature of having two sides with differing opinions, but the detachment from reality is what really makes the hardcore Trump supporters stand out.

Ah, but is "don't build any new roads anywhere," of which one near a world heritage site is a convenient example to try to persuade more people to come on board with, more like that? Seeing as I'm more sympathetic to that side usually it's the other one that looks more cult-like to me - a blind obsession and worship of building more stuff. But you could be right and that's just a clash of very, very different values, and I agree neither seems to have that detachment from reality that those hardcore Trump supporters do, as opposed to very different ideas of what makes a better reality.

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21 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

With Trump you have this belief that he is the only strong man that should be president, which comes up against the constitution and some bad precedents from the past about how this potentially plays out.

Another good point there, because the build a road thing isn't at all about personality on either side, and there's definitely a good proportion of personality cult with Trump.

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21 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Another good point there, because the build a road thing isn't at all about personality on either side, and there's definitely a good proportion of personality cult with Trump.

Well, obviously. When it descends into forcibly entering the capitol and wanting to hang Mike Pence (a traitor) you just know that things have gone down a very deep rabbit hole indeed. It is not normal behaviour by any stretch. It's not normal protest behaviour either. It is much more sinister and darker than that. The fact that people were killed in the incident didn't seem to matter to many of his supporters. Somehow they thought it was a victory of battle in the greater war. 

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28 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Ah, but is "don't build any new roads anywhere," of which one near a world heritage site is a convenient example to try to persuade more people to come on board with, more like that? Seeing as I'm more sympathetic to that side usually it's the other one that looks more cult-like to me - a blind obsession and worship of building more stuff. But you could be right and that's just a clash of very, very different values, and I agree neither seems to have that detachment from reality that those hardcore Trump supporters do, as opposed to very different ideas of what makes a better reality.

Those who live near Stonehenge, I believe, are desperate for a new road because of the poor transport links in the county. Again, not a blink cult-like obsession with growth.

Yes, there are people at the extremes in both ends of the debate, but none is so detached from reality that they cannot see the other side's arguments, even if they reject them, or believe that the other side is made up of satanic paedophiles.

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6 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

Those who live near Stonehenge, I believe, are desperate for a new road because of the poor transport links in the county. Again, not a blink cult-like obsession with growth.

And build them and eventually you end up back to square one with whatever you've built now being considered poor, except you've also got some obnoxious piece of infrastructure, continually rinse and repeat making the place less and less pleasant to live in and never having for long any "improvement" anyway ("improvement" sometimes being "I want my impatience catered for", although in the case of an endless traffic jam it would be a bit much to use that accusation - although should living with "bad" transport garner any more sympathy than moving next to an airport and complaining about the noise?)

Anyway that's all hopeless off-topic.

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1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

I don't know that I really agree with that. There's definitely a body of people who look at Trump and everything he does and reject it with an almost religious fervour - "Trump said it, it's bad!," not because they've looked at what he says and seen it as ridiculous obnoxious drivel (although a lot of it is, especially right now), but because Trump said it, no more. It's like the earlier Creationism vs Evolution discussion (I think that was this thread).

Can you provide examples?

I've seen allegations of this, but I'm not aware of it happening.

For example, some people said if Trump advocated wearing masks, the Democrats would change their mind and say masks were harmful.

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6 minutes ago, Young Turk said:

Can you provide examples?

I've seen allegations of this, but I'm not aware of it happening.

For example, some people said if Trump advocated wearing masks, the Democrats would change their mind and say masks were harmful.

Fair enough, I'm going on more general impressions.

The problem with examples though is that you can always find an example of someone saying or doing anything if you look hard enough, whilst getting a handle on underlying trends and attitudes often doesn't leave definitive, concrete examples but are nonetheless real. But you may just reject that as a cop-out, and fair enough, it does look a bit like one.

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4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

I don't know that I really agree with that. There's definitely a body of people who look at Trump and everything he does and reject it with an almost religious fervour - "Trump said it, it's bad!," not because they've looked at what he says and seen it as ridiculous obnoxious drivel (although a lot of it is, especially right now), but because Trump said it, no more. It's like the earlier Creationism vs Evolution discussion (I think that was this thread).

Its almost a fair point, better to simply say while prejudice can be a useful shortcut its important as much as possible to stay critically disciplined and try to take everything said/done on its own merit.

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