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Who wins trump or Biden?


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10 hours ago, Quiet Guy said:

"So far there are no consequences for Trump and others lying about fraud"

That begs the question: who is lying? The fraud allegations should have been investigated properly by an appropriate legal entity but weren't. By all means, prosecute liars to restore confidence in the sytem but that hasn't happened. That's the problem. The "judgement" is being made by the media and the courts seem to be scared or unwilling to do their job.

"Maybe even the insurrectionists will be pardoned"

I doubt that. The Democrats are out for blood.

"Maybe it's the worst of all worlds."

Absolutely agree. It's a mess. The USA desperately needs open, auditable elections next time.

The lies go back much further than you acknowledge. Trump claimed at least three million illegal immigrants voted for Clinton in 2016. He did investigate this and found no proof, but continued to spread the lie of widespread electoral fraud. So already long before 2020, he was lying about this. He stepped it up over the course of 2020 when polls indicated he was likely to lose. He engineered the "red mirage, blue wave" by downplaying the virus and attacking mail in voting (very high proportions of Republicans would vote in person and very high proportions of Democrats would vote by mail), then had his goons deliberately slow down mail delivery and wait until election day to count mail in votes in battleground states. Then he claimed the widely predicted voting patterns were anomalous and hence evidence of fraud. Without this background, would people be inclined to believe the specific lies made after the election?

 

If there was any evidence of fraud why was none presented to the courts or the public? Why did they simply make assertions? 

If they knew fraud was committed, how come they have absolutely no idea who committed the fraud? (If they did, bring them in for questioning and then get them to inform on their co-conspirators)

Is anyone making any allegations who isn't a Trump fanatic? There must be thousands of experts on these matters (never Trumpers, independents, Democrats, foreigners) who would raise the alarm if they had reason to believe there was fraud. If any of them did, maybe there is something worth investigating. If not, then you are just encouraging every politician who loses a vote to dispute the outcome. 

 

Liars might be prosecuted. Dominion Voting Systems is suing Sidney "The Karen" Powell for $1.3bn.

 

I think it's unlikely, but Trump could pardon the insurrectionists.

Some of the Democrats want to remove Trump, but others want to appease the Republicans.

 

"The "judgement" is being made by the media and the courts seem to be scared or unwilling to do their job."

Why do you claim this?

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1 hour ago, Young Turk said:

I think it's unlikely, but Trump could pardon the insurrectionists.

Some of the Democrats want to remove Trump, but others want to appease the Republicans 

They're caught between a rock and a hard place, and this could tear the US Government apart and make the spiral into a 2nd Civil War or/and Soviet style collapse: going too easy on the violent martial usupers could embolden them to higher feats of violence against opposition and the bureaucratic system itself, making them martyrs could split civil society into pieces that will see each other enemies (and the nuclear armed security/military apparatus alongside it).

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30 minutes ago, Big Orange said:

They're caught between a rock and a hard place, and this could tear the US Government apart and make the spiral into a 2nd Civil War or/and Soviet style collapse: going too easy on the violent martial usupers could embolden them to higher feats of violence against opposition and the bureaucratic system itself, making them martyrs could split civil society into pieces that will see each other enemies (and the nuclear armed security/military apparatus alongside it).

They are already martyrs. They knew they Trump was going to win the election and they know he won the election. The Democrats simply having the audacity to wait until 20th January was too provocative for them. 

If they were either put down during the violent uprising, or prosecuted, would that increase their martyrdom meaningfully?

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44 minutes ago, Big Orange said:

They're caught between a rock and a hard place, and this could tear the US Government apart and make the spiral into a 2nd Civil War or/and Soviet style collapse: going too easy on the violent martial usupers could embolden them to higher feats of violence against opposition and the bureaucratic system itself, making them martyrs could split civil society into pieces that will see each other enemies (and the nuclear armed security/military apparatus alongside it).

Very fragile situation. According wikipedia:

The Small Arms Survey stated that U.S. civilians alone account for 393 million (about 46 percent) of the worldwide total of civilian held firearms. This amounts to "120.5 firearms for every 100 residents.

 

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6 hours ago, pig said:

Bearing in mind they’ve just bashed the brains out of a police officer with a fire extinguisher It would be helpful if you could put clear water between yourself and Trump cult members

 

Oh come on. I have never advocated for violence and did describe the protest as 'ill advised' in an earlier post. Undoubtedly, there are some extremists on the left and right of the spectrum.

My point is that confidence has been lost in the electoral system for quite a large section of the 'normal' USA. This is potentially quite a serious problem.

And I also said in earlier comments that liars should be prosecuted - referring to affidavits. To the best of my knowledge, not a signle affidavit has been tested - just ignored by process.

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16 hours ago, Young Turk said:

Maybe even the insurrectionists will be pardoned. I think very little will be done and they will feel aggrieved anyway. Maybe it's the worst of all worlds.

Not all charges cannot be pardoned I think. 

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7 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

What lie were the MSM peddling? That Trumpy is a incompetent oaf? That’s been pretty much proven beyond all doubt. 

As I've said in the past, I understand why people may find Trump's personality off putting. But your question seems to imply that you never try to look at perspectives that are different from yours.

https://newspunch.com/harvard-media-biased-trump/
https://townhall.com/columnists/timgraham/2020/06/12/the-medias-broadcast-brutality-against-trump-n2570529
https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/17/7-big-stories-corporate-media-is-ignoring-because-the-truth-might-help-trump/
https://www.foxnews.com/media/john-bolton-denies-atlantic-report-trump-soliders-france
https://www.westernjournal.com/study-network-anti-trump-coverage-hits-new-level-never-biased/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/02/trump-has-a-point-about-the-media/

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32 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

Oh come on. I have never advocated for violence and did describe the protest as 'ill advised' in an earlier post. Undoubtedly, there are some extremists on the left and right of the spectrum.

My point is that confidence has been lost in the electoral system for quite a large section of the 'normal' USA. This is potentially quite a serious problem.

And I also said in earlier comments that liars should be prosecuted - referring to affidavits. To the best of my knowledge, not a signle affidavit has been tested - just ignored by process.

I didn't say you advocated violence - I suggested it best if you put clear water between you and the Trump cult.

You claimed Trumps false claims weren't properly examined by the legal system and started crying fake news. You know, like a Trump cult member:

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17 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

Yes, there will be sources that will be against him no matter what (and some for him no matter what) and sources that are bias for and against him. We get that, Thickie McThickiechops. There is also the separate issue of his own actions, which is what we are discussing.

He has been rubbish. As a leftie, I liked that, he has largely been ineffective. His major achievements have been things he has failed to do. Domestically, the deficeit has gone bonkers. He denied Covid-19, having thrown away the pandemic playbook. Abroad, he has strengthed China and the nuclear wing in Iran.

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36 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Yes, there will be sources that will be against him no matter what (and some for him no matter what) and sources that are bias for and against him. We get that, Thickie McThickiechops. There is also the separate issue of his own actions, which is what we are discussing.

He has been rubbish. As a leftie, I liked that, he has largely been ineffective. His major achievements have been things he has failed to do. Domestically, the deficeit has gone bonkers. He denied Covid-19, having thrown away the pandemic playbook. Abroad, he has strengthed China and the nuclear wing in Iran.

Regarding complaints about Trump's effectiveness, I'm fine with all that but ...

Oh dear. Some name calling. Back to the playground we go!

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56 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

My point is that confidence has been lost in the electoral system for quite a large section of the 'normal' USA. This is potentially quite a serious problem.

Allegations of fraud have been raised in the courts and found to have no merit. Does that mean all of the courts (including many judges with known Republican leanings, some even appointed by Trump) are in on a voting scam? Or does it mean that those alleging fraud were and still are perpetrating a scam?

The former would suggest the entire political and legal system is so corrupt that only the Trump campaign is interested in fair elections.

The latter would suggest that everyone except the Trump campaign is interested in fair elections. But the Trump campaign is so corrupt that they will insist they have won under any circumstances.

59 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

And I also said in earlier comments that liars should be prosecuted - referring to affidavits. To the best of my knowledge, not a signle affidavit has been tested - just ignored by process.

What does this mean? Was there a process that could have been followed, but dozens of judges just decided not to? Or was it simply not possible to go the process (i.e. the election was too complicated and the fraud claims too numerous to investigate)? Or was the process followed, but lied about by those alleging fraud?

47 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

I am critical of Trump, but acknowledge he faces a lot of unfair criticism. Sometimes things he says are taken out of context. For example, he was widely criticised for supposedly mimicking a disabled reporter, but it turned out he used those gestures to mock many others. This lie was often referenced by people in "walk away" videos (explaining why former Democrats were voting for Trump) and they'd add: "If the media is lying about this, what else are they lying about?" But what else are they lying about? If the media and Democrats misrepresent Trump to make him look like a bad person, is that really enough to vote for him? Don't you need to favour any of his policies?

Also, this glosses over the lies Trump tells about Democrats. Why did he get a pass for this? "Obama was born in Kenya," "Obama literally founded ISIS," selective editing of videos of Obama encouraging voting to encouraging illegal immigrants to vote, selective editing of Clinton promising green energy jobs to destroying jobs in the coal industry.

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49 minutes ago, pig said:

I didn't say you advocated violence - I suggested it best if you put clear water between you and the Trump cult.

You claimed Trumps false claims weren't properly examined by the legal system and started crying fake news. You know, like a Trump cult member:

Has it occurred to you that the cult is actually the anti-Trump movement? In earlier posts, I commented on the inability to look at other perspectives. When you start using pejorative terms to describe someone you disagree with, it doesn't really help your argument.

I don't think I've ever used the phrase 'fake news'.

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1 hour ago, Quiet Guy said:

Nope I am looking at his incompetence over his presidency. Which is how everyone can judge him. I didn't have a formed opinion of him before that. 

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4 minutes ago, Young Turk said:

Allegations of fraud have been raised in the courts and found to have no merit. Does that mean all of the courts (including many judges with known Republican leanings, some even appointed by Trump) are in on a voting scam? Or does it mean that those alleging fraud were and still are perpetrating a scam?

The former would suggest the entire political and legal system is so corrupt that only the Trump campaign is interested in fair elections.

The latter would suggest that everyone except the Trump campaign is interested in fair elections. But the Trump campaign is so corrupt that they will insist they have won under any circumstances.

What does this mean? Was there a process that could have been followed, but dozens of judges just decided not to? Or was it simply not possible to go the process (i.e. the election was too complicated and the fraud claims too numerous to investigate)? Or was the process followed, but lied about by those alleging fraud?

I am critical of Trump, but acknowledge he faces a lot of unfair criticism. Sometimes things he says are taken out of context. For example, he was widely criticised for supposedly mimicking a disabled reporter, but it turned out he used those gestures to mock many others. This lie was often referenced by people in "walk away" videos (explaining why former Democrats were voting for Trump) and they'd add: "If the media is lying about this, what else are they lying about?" But what else are they lying about? If the media and Democrats misrepresent Trump to make him look like a bad person, is that really enough to vote for him? Don't you need to favour any of his policies?

Also, this glosses over the lies Trump tells about Democrats. Why did he get a pass for this? "Obama was born in Kenya," "Obama literally founded ISIS," selective editing of videos of Obama encouraging voting to encouraging illegal immigrants to vote, selective editing of Clinton promising green energy jobs to destroying jobs in the coal industry.

I have no doubt that Trump has lied and exaggerated - bigly. He's a politician (until 20th January.)

Also, sometimes his careless use of language makes it easier for his critics to have a go at him.

He was never the right guy for President.

The system seems to eliminate the better candidates.

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5 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

Has it occurred to you that the cult is actually the anti-Trump movement? In earlier posts, I commented on the inability to look at other perspectives. When you start using pejorative terms to describe someone you disagree with, it doesn't really help your argument.

I don't think I've ever used the phrase 'fake news'.

There is Trump Derangement Syndrome.

That includes his haters and his supporters. On a personal level, as a man, he is not impressive, but there are worse, including other alleged rapists.

His supporters seem equally deranged. The Q-Anon loons are an extreme, but I will include those who think there must be a rigged election as Trump would not lie surely! Those who stormed the Capitol, thinking he would have their back.

He has avoided another war, despite the boost it might have given him. That is good. I think he does not have malice, merely an all comsuming ego, whereas other politicians serve their own ego differently.

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13 minutes ago, Quiet Guy said:

Has it occurred to you that the cult is actually the anti-Trump movement? In earlier posts, I commented on the inability to look at other perspectives. When you start using pejorative terms to describe someone you disagree with, it doesn't really help your argument.

I don't think I've ever used the phrase 'fake news'.

 

LMAO At this point there seems to be a remarkable amount of things that apparently are failing to occur to you 

 

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That begs the question: who is lying?

Trump

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The fraud allegations should have been investigated properly by an appropriate legal entity

They were investigated by US Judges

Quote

but weren't.

They were - see above

Quote

By all means, prosecute liars to restore confidence in the sytem but that hasn't happened. That's the problem.

Trump should be impeached - not because he is a liar but because he incited a murderous mob to invade the Capitol

Quote

The "judgement" is being made by the media and the courts seem to be scared or unwilling to do their job.

This is the [Trump accent]  'fake noos' bit, followed by er....fake news.

I've labelled the Trump cult a cult as a statement of fact rather than insult, so please don't feel insulted - if you're part of it see it as an invitation to get help.

By the way 'What about them' and 'It wasn't us it was them' are the two idiotic answers we seem to be getting from the Trump Cult at the moment

 

 

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7 hours ago, Quiet Guy said:

Oh come on. I have never advocated for violence and did describe the protest as 'ill advised' in an earlier post. Undoubtedly, there are some extremists on the left and right of the spectrum.

My point is that confidence has been lost in the electoral system for quite a large section of the 'normal' USA. This is potentially quite a serious problem.

And I also said in earlier comments that liars should be prosecuted - referring to affidavits. To the best of my knowledge, not a signle affidavit has been tested - just ignored by process.

The judicial process exists to test claims.

But they first have to be legally coherent credible, over 60 claims were tested and found to be either not legally coherent or not credible.  On top of this you have a tape of a Republican governor going through a long list of alleged frauds one by one and declaring they have been investigated and found to be false.

 

  

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11 hours ago, wighty said:

He will only be remembered for the post election events. Even if he had anything positive prior to this - he's blown it.

And he damaged his reputation.

Trump National stripped of 2022 US PGA Championship

Trump National in Bedminster has been stripped of the US PGA Championship in 2022 as its organisers felt using the course as host would be "detrimental".

The PGA of America voted to terminate the agreement on Sunday.

BBC

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