The overlooked cost of working from home...

[Confusion of VIs]

 

What I am seeing in the Oil and Gas sector in NE Scotland is that companies are going to start using WAH as a benefit of employment but at a cost to the employee - with the level of unemployment there is in the sector just now, any changes are going to be easy to implement.

Thus, those who elect to work at home for the majority of the time will lose most, if not all of their car allowance for example.  Win win for the companies really as a lot of the engineering etc work can be done off site easily, so expect more offices to close in the Aberdeen area and the cost savings that creates.  The threat of offshoring is real as well.

For the employee though, if they are granted the ability to WAH on a permanent basis, expect many to move out of the Aberdeenshire area to much cheaper locations elsewhere (e.g. Moray, Dundee etc) which are within reasonable travelling distance of the main office in Aberdeen for any occasional meetings.

Yes, for some maybe most the lifestyle benefits will mean it is still preferable to going into the office but the company will eventually claw back the financial benefits.  

[scottbeard]

 

You can claim a fixed monthly allowance for a home office with zero proof needed, via self assessment tax return. Its about £26 pcm i think.  I have claimed it since going self employed in 2018.

https://www.gov.uk/simpler-income-tax-simplified-expenses/working-from-home

The rules are different if you are employed:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

Interestingly, if you are employed you can only claim where you HAVE to work from home (eg due to COVID) but not if you CHOOSE to work from home.

[scottbeard]

 

I’ve been amazed by the moaning about utility costs post-WFH. People never stop going on about it and keep saying it’s their right to claim a whole £6 extra per week because Martin Lewis says so. 

They never mention the commuting costs, Costa, overpriced packaged lunch, or random after work beers that they’re now not spending on. This amounts to far more that the tax relief on £6 per week. 

On space at home: if WFH is confirmed permanent then anyone not tied to a city centre mortgage has the opportunity to move somewhere bigger, cheaper, and not artificially pumped owing to transport links or school catchment area. 

It's their right to claim tax relief because ***HMRC*** say so, and given i'm likely to be working from home for at least a year that's 40% x £6 x 52 = £125, which I am very happy to claim in addition to the costs of saving on travel and coffee or whatever.

The extra utility bills is really negligible - I guess I boil the kettle occasionally (heat and lights would be on anyway for the other members of my family).

[GregBowman]

 

The rules are different if you are employed:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

Interestingly, if you are employed you can only claim where you HAVE to work from home (eg due to COVID) but not if you CHOOSE to work from home.

Probably outweighed by all my takeaways being subsistence for thirty years ...😉

Not sure you can claim that stuff as self employed - These are ex’s claimed against my companies 

[BobAJob3]

 

Two grand for lunch is being frugal?! I may sound a bit old fasioned but what's wrong with a pack lunch? Even a Tesco meal deal won't set you back that much, not even a grand, well the cost could add up I guess if you buy coffee as well. 

Yeah, I used to charge my phone up at work as well, now it's costing me at least 10p a month at home!

🥵

[Pop321]

 

People are deluding themselves if thet think yhis is the new norm. Firms are still thinking about what that will be. I am involved in it for my company and on a cross industry  working group. So far letting the employee keep all the benefits of WFH has not featured as a way forward.

However, benefit sharing has. That tends to mean  reducing pay to reflect the employees financial saving but letting them benefit from the time saving.

More radically many see firms moving to zero hours piecework based contracts for all apart from a small core of staff who are deemed to be the "essence" of the company.

Lots more ideas are floating around none of which would make the average WFH employee's life better than at the moment.

I think that in 5 years time many will look back at this and next year as a golden time.

Mentioned before I worked from home in a ‘non work from home’ environment for 5 years. The few who worked from home were under suspicion and historically quite rightly because they might be invisible on a Friday afternoon  

I was a senior manager running a national team and the key was flexibility. However flexibility in my role didn’t mean mowing the lawn at 3pm what it meant was flexibility for the employer to work in a different way. 

A governance and policy meetings involving directors, brand managers, risk managers, lawyers, project owners, marketing with quorum criteria and full secretariat and chairs etc would once have been a full day out in London

However it soon changed to a meeting room in London (say 3/4 people) and another 10 dialling in. The meeting might start at 9:00 finish at 11:00 and by 11:15 you were at the next policy meeting. Sometimes 4 a day and often if they were shorter type meetings then 7/8 a day. All controlled via pc and many across the country dialling in from satellite offices or home. 

Last few years it changed from home working being ‘frowned upon’ to being encouraged.  If I drive into the office I would have a headset on by 9am and it didn’t come off all day.....so unless I needed to I would go in. Indeed seats became a premium as office space contracted and more people were ‘based’ in our office that far exceeded desks. 

It depends on the job but this was unimaginable 10 years ago....but these are jobs you can control by job content. 

My director didn’t need me in the office. He knew where I was and what I was doing with cross contact maybe twice a day ie I may run a meeting, agenda and meeting pace as secretariat and he was official chair. One of my team would be minute taker  and minutes were out that evening. 

Some roles were less visibly productive with maybe attendance at 2/3 calls a week. Those jobs were much less stressful and they were still encouraged to be in the office. 

Working from home suites me and my employers but only because they created key roles that were almost too busy to drive into an office. I started this role in 2012 and there were 3 people doing what I was....within 6 months 2 had gone and I remained. It wasn’t a ‘golden age’ rather a productivity drive and change of working methodology. However personally for me it was transformational and meant my normal busy evenings were suddenly my own. Many hated it because the pace and moving quickly from task to task was too much. 

I worked on cross industry groups and working methodology where WFH was becoming increasingly advocated. They used local hubs for face to face meetings and have pcs updated etc. Ironically it was one of the few meeting we met face to face 😆😆

Where this goes and what this means I don’t know but working from home may become more popular with the right development of working practices. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Pop321

[BobAJob3]

 

My employer is flat out refusing to pay the £6 a week WFH top up. I understand that the tax on that can be added to your allowance if you don't receive it. So, for us lower rate plebs that's £1.20 a week...

I chose to live within walking distance of the office to save commuting costs and get some exercise in. Have never paid for lunch either despite a Tesco being next to the office (£3 each week day is £1k per annum of your pre tax salary). Hot drinks were free at the office, as were bog roll and flushing water. Ditto for power for the PC, lights and heating.

So, all in all, I reckon I'm around £40 a month worse off.

I'm having to pay to charge my phone now as well. Used to do that in the office. It must be costing me at least an extra 10p a month.

[BufferBear Bitcoin Bull]

 

I know it's terrible, we have a 5 bed with a study for 4 of us, i have the study, the wife has a spare double room converted into a walk in wardrobe / dressing room with large office desk and sofa bed, custom built in 2017.  If i leave my study door open i can hear to wife working tapping away at a keyboard and endless zoom meetings, her laughing and chatting. 

Drives me crazy. And when the kids schools where shut, my god despite them being on the top floor with their own double bedrooms, desks and PC's, and shared large bathroom/shower, they where always badgering for food and complaining of being bored. 

And not being able to freely roam due to lockdown, terrible, in better weather I often took a stroll 75m up our 100m long garden, and sit alone in the 12 seater Rondarvel (with wifi and bluetooth stereo and beer fridge). 

Yes i know where you are coming from, COVID19 and lockdown and working from home takes such a toll on one. Cant wait for it to be over and i am alone all day with my thoughts, just dealing with my customers.

Sounds like heaven to me.  😄 Try a 2 bedroom flat with two teenagers and two adults, all WFH initially from March and anti-social neighbours to boot.  Thank God one's now back at school, the other at uni.  During the early stages of the pandemic, I was working 18 hour days with maybe a day off at the weekend. This is most stressed I have ever been work wise!  Pleased it's over, for now! 

[BufferBear Bitcoin Bull]

 

People are deluding themselves if thet think yhis is the new norm. Firms are still thinking about what that will be. I am involved in it for my company and on a cross industry  working group. So far letting the employee keep all the benefits of WFH has not featured as a way forward.

However, benefit sharing has. That tends to mean  reducing pay to reflect the employees financial saving but letting them benefit from the time saving.

More radically many see firms moving to zero hours piecework based contracts for all apart from a small core of staff who are deemed to be the "essence" of the company.

Lots more ideas are floating around none of which would make the average WFH employee's life better than at the moment.

I think that in 5 years time many will look back at this and next year as a golden time.

Not in my business.  Been involved in drafting the new arrangements.  For most jobs,  WFH for 50% of the working week as a minimum guaranteed.  No pay cut.  A variable situation for others, I get it.

[BufferBear Bitcoin Bull]

 

Mentioned before I worked from home in a ‘non work from home’ environment for 5 years. The few who worked from home were under suspicion and historically quite rightly because they might be invisible on a Friday afternoon  

I was a senior manager running a national team and the key was flexibility. However flexibility in my role didn’t mean mowing the lawn at 3pm what it meant was flexibility for the employer to work in a different way. 

A governance and policy meetings involving directors, brand managers, risk managers, lawyers, project owners, marketing with quorum criteria and full secretariat and chairs etc would once have been a full day out in London

However it soon changed to a meeting room in London (say 3/4 people) and another 10 dialling in. The meeting might start at 9:00 finish at 11:00 and by 11:15 you were at the next policy meeting. Sometimes 4 a day and often if they were shorter type meetings then 7/8 a day. All controlled via pc and many across the country dialling in from satellite offices or home. 

Last few years it changed from home working being ‘frowned upon’ to being encouraged.  If I drive into the office I would have a headset on by 9am and it didn’t come off all day.....so unless I needed to I would go in. Indeed seats became a premium as office space contracted and more people were ‘based’ in our office that far exceeded desks. 

It depends on the job but this was unimaginable 10 years ago....but these are jobs you can control by job content. 

My director didn’t need me in the office. He knew where I was and what I was doing with cross contact maybe twice a day ie I may run a meeting, agenda and meeting pace as secretariat and he was official chair. One of my team would be minute taker  and minutes were out that evening. 

Some roles were less visibly productive with maybe attendance at 2/3 calls a week. Those jobs were much less stressful and they were still encouraged to be in the office. 

Working from home suites me and my employers but only because they created key roles that were almost too busy to drive into an office. I started this role in 2012 and there were 3 people doing what I was....within 6 months 2 had gone and I remained. It wasn’t a ‘golden age’ rather a productivity drive and change of working methodology. However personally for me it was transformational and meant my normal busy evenings were suddenly my own. Many hated it because the pace and moving quickly from task to task was too much. 

I worked on cross industry groups and working methodology where WFH was becoming increasingly advocated. They used local hubs for face to face meetings and have pcs updated etc. Ironically it was one of the few meeting we met face to face 😆😆

Where this goes and what this means I don’t know but working from home may become more popular with the right development of working practices. 

Very informative, thank you and certainly the direction my business is moving in.@Pop321

 

[BufferBear Bitcoin Bull]

 

The log cabin at the top of the garden, who needs a detached house, just a comfortable without distractions detached place with leccy and connections away from the house....a commute to the end of the garden.

@winkieI think this even beats @markyh's set up! 😀

[Confusion of VIs]

 

Not in my business.  Been involved in drafting the new arrangements.  For most jobs,  WFH for 50% of the working week as a minimum guaranteed.  No pay cut.  A variable situation for others, I get it.

In five years time I think you will look back at 2020 and 2021 as the golden years for WFH.  

[Pop321]

 

Sounds like heaven to me.  😄 Try a 2 bedroom flat with two teenagers and two adults, all WFH initially from March and anti-social neighbours to boot.  Thank God one's now back at school, the other at uni.  During the early stages of the pandemic, I was working 18 hour days with maybe a day off at the weekend. This is most stressed I have ever been work wise!  Pleased it's over, for now! 

I was completely ‘Pro’ working from home and the huge travel time it saved me. 
Just me and the missus, who doesn’t work. We have 3 spare bedrooms (used regularly by my sister from The South and my grandkids) but plenty of office space in the corner of one. 

Yes, full empathy for your position and how under your scenario WFH doesn’t work....😉

[PeanutButter]

Arthur C Clarke predicted all this in 1964, “It will be possible for a man to conduct his business from Tahiti or Bali just as well as he could from London.”

[captainb]

 

Not in my business.  Been involved in drafting the new arrangements.  For most jobs,  WFH for 50% of the working week as a minimum guaranteed.  No pay cut.  A variable situation for others, I get it.

In 12 months time... Hello... I can outsource this division to Belfast. Great staff. Love WFH and do it for other companies. 50% of your SE salary cost. Which director will say no? 

 

Has to be a massive market for that. You dont even need to goto Bangalore or Poland for the wage spread.

[Sprite]

Ultimately the issue with WFH is monitoring, I know for definite there's some people that are taking it easy working from home and it suits them.

I think the general trend will end up being more flexibility to employees with 2 or 3 days WFH during a regular week.

I can't see everyone continuing to WFH full time, give it another 6 months and people will be desperate to get back in the office.

[Riedquat]

When the fools start clearing the shelves of toilet paper at least working in the office there's access to the company's  supply...

[Huggy]

Still enjoying WFH. If I go for another job at any point, WFH will be a benefit up there with salary, bonus, pension etc.

It's like getting an extra 50 days holiday a year for starters. Of course, things at home are better for me than some of the examples above, but if I never have to swipe into an office again, I'll die a happy fella!

[BufferBear Bitcoin Bull]

 

I was completely ‘Pro’ working from home and the huge travel time it saved me. 
Just me and the missus, who doesn’t work. We have 3 spare bedrooms (used regularly by my sister from The South and my grandkids) but plenty of office space in the corner of one. 

Yes, full empathy for your position and how under your scenario WFH doesn’t work....😉

And despite this, I'm happier working from home, mostly.  I seem to be working longer hours but achieving more rest!  I also had a promotion just as the pandemic landed.  Baptism of fire but I may as well get paid for the stress.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Buffer Bear

[Ah-so]

 

 Average train fare is £3k a year, lunches for a frugal type two grand maybe, 1 hour of time per day at £20ph is £5k. £10k easily for a normal person.

Your lunch budget works out at about £9 per day - hardly frugal. Also, your lunch presumably still has done kind of cost. 

And your 1 hour of time assumes that you would get paid for this hour. Wasn't quite clear to me what the time relates to, travel perhaps, but unless you can monetise this hour, this doesn't have financial benefits. 

I'm saving money on travel, lunch, but obviously spending more on electricity and soon that will be heading as well, the more material cost. I also spent some money on a new monitor, monitor stand and desk lamp to maximise space on my tiny desk. 

[Huggy]

 

Your lunch budget works out at about £9 per day - hardly frugal. Also, your lunch presumably still has done kind of cost. 

And your 1 hour of time assumes that you would get paid for this hour. Wasn't quite clear to me what the time relates to, travel perhaps, but unless you can monetise this hour, this doesn't have financial benefits. 

I'm saving money on travel, lunch, but obviously spending more on electricity and soon that will be heading as well, the more material cost. I also spent some money on a new monitor, monitor stand and desk lamp to maximise space on my tiny desk. 

I think the problem here was that I rounded it up from around £1,700 and included a cheap coffee and bit of breakfast in there. Yeah, if you do all from home then you could easily beat that I guess. Sadly, I could easily blow 15-20 quid on a lunch if I wasn't careful sometimes....

On the time part, I consider my time to be a resource (a scarce and valuable one too). For ease of comparison, I just put a cash amount on it and if a company pays £20ph in the example, then that to me is a decent enough estimate. You do need to put the hours spent 'being a worker' into the calculation. Get paid for 8 hours a day but you leave at 7 and get home at 6 (hour commute each side plus 1 for lunch) which means that's less than £15ph for your working time. WFH is £20ph.

YMMV with all of this of course.

[Huggy]

Microsoft makes remote work option permanent

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54482245

Nice!

[hotblack42]

 

.. but the company will eventually claw back the financial benefits.  

Strictly they can't 'claw back' something they didn't have, its more like confiscation, but I know what you mean.

Its the first Pandemic of the information age so let's cut each other some slack.  The reasonable thing to do is split it, over time through smaller or deferred payrises.  Let's face it, for most its taxed money used for commuting etc.  For some its equivalent to a substantial and noticeable increase in gross pay as mentioned on this thread.

If the employer tries to grab all the money and it all goes to the execs because competitors are not screwing their staff over, and there is no pressure on margins then its elephant memory time.
If you are in a position to do so, wait until you leave, preferably to retire with a pension that your employer can't touch, and shaft them horribly and mercilessly.  Ideally with a surgical strike targeted at executive remuneration.  I'm not going to spell out how on here, but if you work in Finance with substantial autonomous sign off, or in IT with access to core Live data, or could undetectably sabotage its cyber security, then you can bring your employer to their knees, especially if they are regulated.  Not a fatal blow, don't want to put ex-colleagues out of work.  Try to do something that will require lots of paid overtime for them to remediate.

Smart execs don't mess with senior technical staff wise enough to keep outside general management.  Vindictive bu66ers with long memories.

This is more in reference to some of the grade A assh0les I've worked for previously.  Current lot are quite paternalistic, they are looking into an allowance that staff could use towards renewing their own desktop or laptop, buying a large monitor, an office chair, desk or whatever makes WFH more practical and comfortable.

Edited October 10, 2020 by hotblack42
grama

[crazypabs]

The taxman cometh...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/like-the-look-of-my-home-office-so-does-the-taxman-nhhf6jjzm

[Pop321]

 

Strictly they can't 'claw back' something they didn't have, its more like confiscation, but I know what you mean.

Its the first Pandemic of the information age so let's cut each other some slack.  The reasonable thing to do is split it, over time through smaller or deferred payrises.  Let's face it, for most its taxed money used for commuting etc.  For some its equivalent to a substantial and noticeable increase in gross pay as mentioned on this thread.

If the employer tries to grab all the money and it all goes to the execs because competitors are not screwing their staff over, and there is no pressure on margins then its elephant memory time.
If you are in a position to do so, wait until you leave, preferably to retire with a pension that your employer can't touch, and shaft them horribly and mercilessly.  Ideally with a surgical strike targeted at executive remuneration.  I'm not going to spell out how on here, but if you work in Finance with substantial autonomous sign off, or in IT with access to core Live data, or could undetectably sabotage its cyber security, then you can bring your employer to their knees, especially if they are regulated.  Not a fatal blow, don't want to put ex-colleagues out of work.  Try to do something that will require lots of paid overtime for them to remediate.

Smart execs don't mess with senior technical staff wise enough to keep outside general management.  Vindictive bu66ers with long memories.

This is more in reference to some of the grade A assh0les I've worked for previously.  Current lot are quite paternalistic, they are looking into an allowance that staff could use towards renewing their own desktop or laptop, buying a large monitor, an office chair, desk or whatever makes WFH more practical and comfortable.

I can’t find the note you have replied to so apologies if my comments miss the point. 

My experience in finance was that our company (and it’s a very very big company) over the past 5 years was shifting to hubs and WFH. We have massive offices or satellite offices in EVERY city and town. However when you get rid of 10’s of thousands of staff the model changed radically. Massive flexibility was required. I was in maybe 5/6 meetings each day and those meeting might be London, Bristol, Edinburgh and Leeds. I could sit in Leeds and do the others remotely or work from home (or a local office) and do them all remotely. 

Initially the benefit was all mine. However we closed massive office buildings in each city. 6000 people and probably 3000 desks instead of 10000 people and 10000 desks. These closure caused some distrust ion for staff particularly London where they might be a few miles apart. I could see how the benefit was now 60% employer. 

Everyone at my level (and most levels below) already had laptops and phones mainly for flexibility but also security. 

One shift was the company now uses the employees broadband via a secure network connection. Before it provided a separate connection at the companies cost. That caused a little stir for a while many saying they didn’t have broadband....the answer was simple...if you don’t have home broad back then drive to a local office. 

So I think it’s less clear whether they will try to confiscate monies for the privilege of working from home. My experience was they changed the work you did. The output I was achieving v’s the job 5 years ago was huge. And previously 3 people did my job all in cars all driving around the country. 

Also they could try reduce pay for saved travel time but the reality was many were paid for 8 hours and would work at least 9 hours a day, the company were getting the travel time back in extra hours. Some meeting would start at 4:30 and previously that just wouldn’t happen because everyone was packing up and getting into cars  

I do realise this ‘utopia’ relies heavily on loyal staff. The reality is if they change the workload and work style enough then the staff member has no choice but to dial into meetings. Those who decide not to bother are exposed...ie if it was a go/no go call and legal didn’t turn up then it went up the line for sign off. Maybe that’s fine once a month but ifs a pattern their boss will know and be asking questions because they themselves were also under pressure delivering workloads.

My Experience is limited to one company....but it was a leading company and it will be interesting watch to see how working environments change over the next 10/15 years. City centres will likely change with not just the high street under challenge but also office space. Its great to have a presence in London but many massive companies may have 5/10 huge offices. They will keep the big ones and the best addressed ones maybe but I am sure they will look at moving out of others if they can. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Pop321