Downing Street plans new digital ID cards for British citizens

[Chunketh]

1 hour ago, nightowl said:

Also Google/Android know something about me, as does Microsoft, EE, Vodafone, HPC, Twitter etc but they are all have fragmented knowledge, plus they cant do any damage to my life and restrict me.

 

The government already know all of this. Its called Tempora.

The tying in of biometrics, the clear scope creep into encryption, the total lack of trust (see tempora above), the frankly laughable track record on both security/VI manipulation and being compelled to carry one of these things is what should scare you. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora

Edited September 4, 2020 by Chunketh

[nightowl]

1 minute ago, Chunketh said:

The government already know all of this. Its called Tempora.

The tying in of biometrics, the clear scope creep into encryption, the total lack of trust (see tempora above), the frankly laughable track record on both security/VI manipulation and being compelled to carry one of these things is what should scare you. 

All the more reason not to have another thing to deal with in ID cards

[Chunketh]

1 minute ago, nightowl said:

All the more reason not to have another thing to deal with in ID cards

exactly.

The governments of the world have been trying to put the PGP genie back in the bottle since the 90's and since then they have proved why Zimmermann was so right to release the source code.

[Blink]

I'd like all those that oppose ID Cards to say how they think the government should isolate the estimated 1.2 million illegal immigrants from operating in the UK economy?

That's an awful lot of housing, creating upward pressure on prices, billions in unpaid taxes, illegal employment, and criminality in the black market.

[Warlord]

4 minutes ago, Blink said:

That's an awful lot of housing, creating upward pressure on prices, billions in unpaid taxes, illegal employment, and criminality in the black market.

Black markets will always exist infact there will probably be a burgeoning black market in fake ids  should they ever do this and crims will make a fortune.

 

[oracle]

5 minutes ago, Blink said:

I'd like all those that oppose ID Cards to say how they think the government should isolate the estimated 1.2 million illegal immigrants from operating in the UK economy?

That's an awful lot of housing, creating upward pressure on prices, billions in unpaid taxes, illegal employment, and criminality in the black market.

I think if digital ID was introduced it would highlight just how big the scale of this mass immigration and black economy really is, which would be so unpopular witht he people it would cause a revolution/civil war!

 big government,big business and the like do not wish for this information to become public knowledge,they know full well the extent of concealment/downplaying of their actions quite literally means heads on spikes.

 

that's not to say I'm a supporter of ID cards, I am not.  I believe that in this country you(should) have the right to go freely about your business with the minimum of intrusion.I do however take issue with the way present and previous governments have conducted immigration policy.

 

I am in favour of much stricter screening for new applicants, and a 10 year probationary period for those granted permission to stay here, in which any offences(or series of) totalling conviction and 12 months prison means IMMEDIATE deportation.no ifs, no buts, no ECHR appeals. you're out.end of story.

priti has made noises in this direction,but what we are missing is porper,robust enforcement.

[Blink]

17 minutes ago, Warlord said:

Black markets will always exist infact there will probably be a burgeoning black market in fake ids  should they ever do this and crims will make a fortune.

 

Unbelievable. 

Basically, crime will always exist so why bother.

Pretty much sums up the attitude of anyone with a VI.

[erat_forte]

22 minutes ago, oracle said:

...

I believe that in this country you(should) have the right to go freely about your business with the minimum of intrusion.

 

... for those granted permission to stay here, in which any offences(or series of) totalling conviction and 12 months prison means IMMEDIATE deportation.no ifs, no buts, no ECHR appeals. you're out.end of story.

...

There's something not consistent about this post, oracle. Can't quite put my finger on it though...

[Chunketh]

42 minutes ago, Blink said:

Unbelievable. 

Basically, crime will always exist so why bother.

Pretty much sums up the attitude of anyone with a VI.

Unbelievable

Basically because illegal immigration will always exist, give up your right to privacy

Pretty much sums up the attitude of anyone without a clue. 

 

[oracle]

36 minutes ago, erat_forte said:

There's something not consistent about this post, oracle. Can't quite put my finger on it though...

not really.

the point i am making is that during a probabtionary period(even starting a new job), there is a period where you are expected to demonstrate good behaviour and conduct.

During said period, your contract will generally state that if certain obligations are not met, the employer(in this case UK State),can rescind any potential offer and terminate  your employment.

[The Preacherman]

On 04/09/2020 at 07:40, Blink said:

100% agree about the critical need for a compulsory National ID Card.

It must be made illegal to have access without a ID Card to healthcare, education, housing, employment or benefits,  or even purchases over a set amount. 

There also needs a mechanism in repatriation of those in the UK illegally, as at the moment, we've become a haven for the black market economy.

Those that protest are 99% of the time worried about their own circumstances. Good.

I have no problem with a unified government ID number to access public services. We already have several; national insurance, passport, drivers licence, NHS, so moving to a single ID would make sense. 

The concern is the nosense around it. Using big data to track and manipulate society. 

[mrtickle]

On 03/09/2020 at 16:12, Postman said:

Non-starter imo. Will get binned just like Alan Johnson binned the national ID cards in embarrassing fashion. 

Alan Johnson didn't bin them. He pushed and pushed and pushed. Like Blunkett before him.

It was ONLY Labour losing the 2010 election that stopped it.

 

[ForGreatLager...]

1 hour ago, The Preacherman said:

The concern is the nosense around it. Using big data to track and manipulate society. 

This. The cards and, more importantly, the database will not be for your benefit. Although it would be sold to you as such. 

[Chunketh]

1 hour ago, The Preacherman said:

The concern is the nosense around it. Using big data to track and manipulate society. 

Its why Cummings has such a boner for it.

[ForGreatLager...]

4 hours ago, Blink said:

I'd like all those that oppose ID Cards to say how they think the government should isolate the estimated 1.2 million illegal immigrants from operating in the UK economy?

That's an awful lot of housing, creating upward pressure on prices, billions in unpaid taxes, illegal employment, and criminality in the black market.

How did they get into the country in the first place? Fake ID perhaps? 

[MARTINX9]

3 hours ago, The Preacherman said:

I have no problem with a unified government ID number to access public services. We already have several; national insurance, passport, drivers licence, NHS, so moving to a single ID would make sense. 

The concern is the nosense around it. Using big data to track and manipulate society. 

Ireland had no such scheme in 2012 - then it introduced its public services card which now 80% plus of people have.

We already have cards - bus passes and oystecards and credit cards - that can track us and phones and ID cards like driving licences which anyone driving in theory should be carrying. You cannot open a savings account and invest £100 without photo ID and proof of address - yet you can go and access possibly tens of thousands in healthcare without any ID being provided at all? Bizarre?

Would also avoid those reception queues at A&E - name, address. GP (can't remember), date of birth, inside leg measurement. Here is my NHS public services photocard scan - scan job done!

If you are worried about being tracked by the state fine - don't ever use public transport again or drive and destroy all your mobile phones!

Edited September 5, 2020 by MARTINX9

[Ballyk]

16 hours ago, nightowl said:

Passports have their purpose (not £80 worth though) but I know first hand how many dont work at the e-gates as they should at UK border but work abroad fine.  The fact they dont work anywhere near 99% of the time is concerning.

DVLA handles driving licences but aren't integrated with the passport office who in turn aren't integrated with DWP or HMRC which stops any creep and each has its own reason to exist...a general ID card doesn't have any reason to exist other than just to exist.

Also Google/Android know something about me, as does Microsoft, EE, Vodafone, HPC, Twitter etc but they are all have fragmented knowledge, plus they cant do any damage to my life and restrict me.

ID cards could be used for nefarious purposes while many of other places that have our information cant.

 

Any form of ID could be used for nefarious purposes.

I would be in favour of an ID card for obtaining services from the state, proving rights to employment, entitlement to rent or buy a house, etc.  These are not civil liberties issues.  Many liberal, well organised countries require the same, eg Denmark.  I would not be in favour of having to carry an ID card at all times, there is no need for that.

One of the reasons for the UK's recent decline, Brexit, etc is that there has not been enough oversight and control of migration and access to state provided services.  UK politicians have found it very convenient to blame our problems on the EU, whereas mostly they have been of our own making.  We did not enforce the rules we could have done to enable a better ordered society.

[Bugger BTL]

2 hours ago, ForGreatLager... said:

This. The cards and, more importantly, the database will not be for your benefit. Although it would be sold to you as such. 

Correct. I'm not saying there are no scenarios in which a state could potentially be trusted not to misuse an ID card scheme, but we aren't currently living in one. Nobody with any sense would want this current shower anywhere near a project like that. There would also be widespread abuse, as there is now of passports, so the idea that it would do anything much about people working illegally is fanciful.

[ForGreatLager...]

3 hours ago, Ballyk said:

I would be in favour of an ID card for obtaining services from the state, proving rights to employment, entitlement to rent or buy a house, etc.  These are not civil liberties issues.  Many liberal, well organised countries require the same, eg Denmark.  I would not be in favour of having to carry an ID card at all times, there is no need for that.

We are not a liberal, well organised country though. We are country run by greed, incompetence and impunity for a citizenship that will abuse whatever they can if they think they can get away with it.

We’re all able to get a job, rent or buy a house with the current sets of ID. 

It was the functionality creep that people were rightly concerned about last time this idea popped up: Imagine the cards are dolled out and you only use them for the reasons you would currently. Then in the future the Govt decide your new ID must be swiped every time you purchase alcohol (for proof of age, of course). Then imagine 20 years later you have to visit the GP because of a potential liver problem. They point to the screen where it shows you’ve spent £67,000 at Peter Dominics and you’re no longer eligible for the NHS treatment as it’s too expensive for people with self inflicted illnesses such as this. But don’t worry, (insert name of current chancellor)’s private medical firm will carry out your treatment for £xxxxxx

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by ForGreatLager...

[Blink]

The biggest and most fundamental issues is, the legal immigrant who then brings over and supports their immediate family (3 generations)and does not declare any of them on their Council Tax declarations.

The first thing every local authority should do, see how many people are registered in properties of three or more bedrooms.

Where any under occupancy exists, do an unannounced visit, backed by law, to inspect the property. 

Low and behold they'll discover a hornets nest of illegal immigration.

This is where the real issue is, multiple generations of illegal immigrants will happily occupy a property owned by the one and only legal family member in the household.  

It really is not rocket science to uncover, and thankfully that is where this government is taking it next.

[ForGreatLager...]

10 minutes ago, Blink said:

The biggest and most fundamental issues is, the legal immigrant who then brings over and supports their immediate family (3 generations)and does not declare any of them on their Council Tax declarations.

The first thing every local authority should do, see how many people are registered in properties of three or more bedrooms.

Where any under occupancy exists, do an unannounced visit, backed by law, to inspect the property. 

Low and behold they'll discover a hornets nest of illegal immigration.

This is where the real issue is, multiple generations of illegal immigrants will happily occupy a property owned by the one and only legal family member in the household.  

It really is not rocket science to uncover, and thankfully that is where this government is taking it next.

And how would new ID solve your problem there? Are you going to build a wall out of ID cards?

[Riedquat]

10 hours ago, Blink said:

I'd like all those that oppose ID Cards to say how they think the government should isolate the estimated 1.2 million illegal immigrants from operating in the UK economy?

That's an awful lot of housing, creating upward pressure on prices, billions in unpaid taxes, illegal employment, and criminality in the black market.

Two problems with that - firstly, as has been pointed out, illegal immigrants are already operating outside the law. It's extreme naivety to think that can be tackled with extra laws. Well maybe they could if you could take the laws and restrictions far enough to the point where any advantages are massively outweighed by the disadvantages (but unfortunately that's never been a reason not to come up with some new restriction these days).

Secondly is good old "two wrongs don't make a right."

Practical concerns and mission creep are the icing on the cake but anyone not fundamentally opposed to the whole concept of ID cards is utterly fcked up in the head.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Riedquat

[Blink]

See how certain people cry foul when you propose a simple but effective way to uncover an Aladdin's cave of criminality. 

Watch and learn what's coming your way.

[ForGreatLager...]

6 minutes ago, Blink said:

See how certain people cry foul when you propose a simple but effective way to uncover an Aladdin's cave of criminality. 

Watch and learn what's coming your way.

What is your simple and effective way to uncover said criminality with a new ID card? 

[Chunketh]

28 minutes ago, Blink said:

See how certain people cry foul when you propose a simple but effective way to uncover an Aladdin's cave of criminality. 

Watch and learn what's coming your way.

The trouble is that it’s NOT simple