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James Brokenshire Trying To Defend The Tories Over Russia


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10 minutes ago, longgone said:

i`m pretty sure remainers argued the toss that Brexit was caused by the elderly racist mob....

I did try to explain many time that thinking elderly racists overwhelming voted Leave does not mean that everyone who voted Leave was an elderly racist.

If all your siblings voted Leave, it would not mean that everyone who voted Leave was your brother or sister. This is perhaps difficult to understand at first, but when you get it, it will be really obvious :)

10 minutes ago, longgone said:

i`m pretty sure remainers argued the toss that Brexit was caused by the elderly racist mob. someone advise me how influencing twitter and facebook would change their minds seeing as they never grasped how to set a vhs to record back in the 80`s 

Advertisers spend lots and lots of money on advertising and marketing. They do this because it really helps them in selling. That does not mean that people think they they personally were influenced.

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2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I did try to explain many time that thinking elderly racists overwhelming voted Leave does not mean that everyone who voted Leave was an elderly racist.

If all your siblings voted Leave, it would not mean that everyone who voted Leave was your brother or sister. This is perhaps difficult to understand at first, but when you get it, it will be really obvious :)

Advertisers spend lots and lots of money on advertising and marketing. They do this because it really helps them in selling. That does not mean that people think they they personally were influenced.

on the contrary in remain land everyone who voted leave was a racist bigot and used a stick and drank in spoons.  well at least on here anyway. Those kind of people would have trouble being influenced by Facebook or twitter.  so Russian influence is a non starter. 

who says anyone was influenced at all ? more remainer hypocrisy brexiters cannot think independently so must have been influenced. ?

 

 

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3 hours ago, byron78 said:

Either way, I think I'm out. 

No other party I could vote for at the moment mind.

As I’ve said on another thread:

 

Politicians exist to fill their own boots, help out their friends and line up lucrative jobs for when they’ve left politics. General elections have become a choice of which suited thugs you’d like to come and burgle you. All the while lobbying and donations exist, we will never have politicians who work for the people. A radical change in politics is needed. Perhaps it will come as more and more generations are priced out of life. 

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Just now, ForGreatLager... said:

As I’ve said on another thread:

 

Politicians exist to fill their own boots, help out their friends and line up lucrative jobs for when they’ve left politics. General elections have become a choice of which suited thugs you’d like to come and burgle you. All the while lobbying and donations exist, we will never have politicians who work for the people. A radical change in politics is needed. Perhaps it will come as more and more generations are priced out of life. 

+1 

shame it will be the next gen if anyone to reap any benefit.  only way to win is to not play their game.  

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24 minutes ago, longgone said:

on the contrary in remain land everyone who voted leave was a racist bigot and used a stick and drank in spoons.  well at least on here anyway. Those kind of people would have trouble being influenced by Facebook or twitter.  so Russian influence is a non starter. 

who says anyone was influenced at all ? more remainer hypocrisy brexiters cannot think independently so must have been influenced. ?

 

I did try to explain many time that thinking elderly racists overwhelming voted Leave does not mean that everyone who voted Leave was an elderly racist.

If all your siblings voted Leave, it would not mean that everyone who voted Leave was your brother or sister. This is perhaps difficult to understand at first, but when you get it, it will be really obvious :)

Advertisers spend lots and lots of money on advertising and marketing. They do this because it really helps them in selling. That does not mean that people think they they personally were influenced. If advertising does not affect anyone that would be a big waste, all the evidence suggests it does (the figures for which alcoholic drinks people choose is mainly down to advertising).

I would presume that the Russians were rather keen to promote the nationalist vote in Scotland too. They were also keen to push anti-vax messages. That does not in itself discredit any of these things. I am personally benefitting from brexit.

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35 minutes ago, longgone said:

 

who says anyone was influenced at all ? more remainer hypocrisy brexiters cannot think independently so must have been influenced. ?

 

 

I’ve always felt that the idea that people only voted based on the information given during the campaigning was pure folly. That says more about the lack of political engagement of the person saying that more than anything else; the type of person who only takes an interest when there’s a vote coming up. I seem to remember it was said way before the vote that people who were going to vote to leave had been waiting to do so for years, and that nothing was going to change their mind. I also felt that the immediate attack on Leavers from the MSM and social media was just an attempt to shame them into requesting a second referendum. The fact is: no one knows why other people vote the way they do. 

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1 hour ago, longgone said:

....

who says anyone was influenced at all ? more remainer hypocrisy brexiters cannot think independently so must have been influenced. ?

...

I have been pretty clear that the way I voted (remain) would be predicted by demographics and perspective (state school, highly qualified, well paid, believe in climate change). I do not claim to be an independent thinker.

I believe I was right pretty much by co-incidence.

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Did Russians interfere? Almost certainly

Did it have a bearing on the result? Probably not, there was already a large domestic ran campaign peddling the same misinformation. 

The fact that the Tories do not want to even look at it though proves they Re a risk to national security, not only are they sloshing in Putins money but are not even pretending to care about it. 

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4 hours ago, longgone said:

i`m pretty sure remainers argued the toss that Brexit was caused by the elderly racist mob. someone advise me how influencing twitter and facebook would change their minds seeing as they never grasped how to set a vhs to record back in the 80`s 

My Mum only watches the BBC. She voted Remain, but by the end of last year she was sick of their bias and had switched to Boris and Brexit...unless the Russians are using some weird reverse psychology in the BBC, I think she was persuaded by the arrogance and snobbery of The broadcasters,

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26 minutes ago, HovelinHove said:

My Mum only watches the BBC. She voted Remain, but by the end of last year she was sick of their bias and had switched to Boris and Brexit...unless the Russians are using some weird reverse psychology in the BBC, I think she was persuaded by the arrogance and snobbery of The broadcasters,

Yeah of course she was. More likely she's pretended to switch so you'd put a cake in it. 

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19 hours ago, msi said:

The level of hypocrisy amongst Tory supporters defies belief. It is an extreme cognitive dissonance:

Record debt - but but Brown...

Crony support - but but Blair....

Privatisation - but but...PFI....

I think this is a broader issue of bipartisan politics.  What we see is a wave of support veering from those associated with one party to those associated with the other - motivated by revulsion rather than affinity for the alternative.  Under the Conservative government of the 80s and 90s, when I was growing up, I wasn't convinced that government was acting in the honest interest of the electorate - but I wasn't convinced that the opposition was any better, either.  In the 90s and 00s, I saw the Labour government adopt new policies that were not in the honest interest of the electorate - while doubling down on Conservative policies that they had appeared to oppose. In the 10s, we saw Referendums - perhaps they were bold moves to resolve political difficulties - but, if so, they were an abject failure.  Vote Remain lost because it was backed-to-the-hilt by the elected government... who were not trusted. There was good cause for mistrust - once the outcome of the 2016 Referendum was known, none of the resolute assurances that the Government would "immediately invoke Article 50" were honoured. Political discourse descended into farce.

For me, by virtue of my age, I have a special place for Labour's failings... these were prominent when I was old enough and interested enough to follow the details.  I feel Labour describe policies that (after careful consideration) I don't agree with... but which they (badly) implement... Conversely, I feel the Conservatives describe policies that (after careful consideration) I might agree with... but which turn out to be almost diametrically opposite to the (relatively effective) policies they implement.  That makes democratic influence rather difficult.

I am coming towards the opinion that the elected parties and their representatives (in National and International contexts) are little more than sock puppets for an agenda that has an origin almost entirely independent of democratic accountability.

 

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13 minutes ago, A.steve said:

I am coming towards the opinion that the elected parties and their representatives (in National and International contexts) are little more than sock puppets for an agenda that has an origin almost entirely independent of democratic accountability.

+1

Average person gets chucked a few beans and that tends to keep most folk happy.

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5 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

BJ won because he was up against Corbyn. Trump won because he was up against Clinton.

What passes for democracy these days is... You have an effective choice of two and the least bad wins.

Democracy can only exist if there is a decent, credible opposition, knowing those in power will do all they can to discredit the competition......perhaps corbyn and clinton didn't want the job, cameron certainly didn't?......with democracy things will always swap and change all short-term thinking, no long-term planning ...do it to then undo it.;) 

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7 minutes ago, winkie said:

Democracy can only exist if there is a decent, credible opposition, knowing those in power will do all they can to discredit the competition......perhaps corbyn and clinton didn't want the job, cameron certainly didn't?......with democracy things will always swap and change all short-term thinking, no long-term planning ...do it to then undo it.;) 

The absolute worst thing about our democracy is that is a representative democracy that imposes no sanctions against liars. They lie to get elected and can then do pretty much what they like until the next election.

Representative democracy is potentially a liars charter! It used to work in the days when lying was considered unacceptable, rather than the norm.

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14 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The absolute worst thing about our democracy is that is a representative democracy that imposes no sanctions against liars. They lie to get elected and can then do pretty much what they like until the next election.

Representative democracy is potentially a liars charter! It used to work in the days when lying was considered unacceptable, rather than the norm.

That's why is is critical to have accountability - in the case of Br*xit - holding Leave to the promises made and calling them out for lack of delivery. 

I'm not in favour of legally binding manifesto's, we know that will fall into legal jargon.  Better to attack a party on failed promises and failed deliveries.  In the case of the Tories, it should be a walk in park.

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30 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The absolute worst thing about our democracy is that is a representative democracy that imposes no sanctions against liars. They lie to get elected and can then do pretty much what they like until the next election.

Representative democracy is potentially a liars charter! It used to work in the days when lying was considered unacceptable, rather than the norm.

....everything is a lie until proven otherwise......how did we get here?;)

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1 hour ago, A.steve said:

Vote Remain lost because it was backed-to-the-hilt by the elected government... who were not trusted.

 

Straight from the beginning I felt it was a huge mistake for Cameron to take a side; he should’ve stayed neutral. It was the perfect opportunity for long disgruntled voters to stick it to the political class that had angered or ignored them for so long. Also, during the debates I felt that Cameron perfectly illustrated the mentality of the much loathed career politician when he was asked about the time frame of Turkey’s ascension to the EU, only to fumble his answer and then say “well, I won’t be Prime Minister then.” (Not a direct quote) In my view, Leave didn’t ‘win’ the vote: Remain, with 40 odd years of experience and proof, totally failed to convince people to stay as a member of the EU. Threatening people was the wrong way to go. 

548F17D1-D3D0-4EF1-87EB-C528A3236768.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, ForGreatLager... said:

Straight from the beginning I felt it was a huge mistake for Cameron to take a side; he should’ve stayed neutral. It was the perfect opportunity for long disgruntled voters to stick it to the political class that had angered or ignored them for so long. Also, during the debates I felt that Cameron perfectly illustrated the mentality of the much loathed career politician when he was asked about the time frame of Turkey’s ascension to the EU, only to fumble his answer and then say “well, I won’t be Prime Minister then.” (Not a direct quote) In my view, Leave didn’t ‘win’ the vote: Remain, with 40 odd years of experience and proof, totally failed to convince people to stay as a member of the EU. Threatening people was the wrong way to go. 

548F17D1-D3D0-4EF1-87EB-C528A3236768.jpeg

Yep. When Goldman sachs are telling you to do one thing...

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15 hours ago, HovelinHove said:

My Mum only watches the BBC. She voted Remain, but by the end of last year she was sick of their bias and had switched to Boris and Brexit...unless the Russians are using some weird reverse psychology in the BBC, I think she was persuaded by the arrogance and snobbery of The broadcasters,

The sad fact is remainers probably influenced more people to vote Brexit than any outside interference could have done. ?

well done chaps. 

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18 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I have been pretty clear that the way I voted (remain) would be predicted by demographics and perspective (state school, highly qualified, well paid, believe in climate change). I do not claim to be an independent thinker.

I believe I was right pretty much by co-incidence.

i translate that as scared to rock the boat. 

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19 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I did try to explain many time that thinking elderly racists overwhelming voted Leave does not mean that everyone who voted Leave was an elderly racist.

If all your siblings voted Leave, it would not mean that everyone who voted Leave was your brother or sister. This is perhaps difficult to understand at first, but when you get it, it will be really obvious :)

Advertisers spend lots and lots of money on advertising and marketing. They do this because it really helps them in selling. That does not mean that people think they they personally were influenced. If advertising does not affect anyone that would be a big waste, all the evidence suggests it does (the figures for which alcoholic drinks people choose is mainly down to advertising).

I would presume that the Russians were rather keen to promote the nationalist vote in Scotland too. They were also keen to push anti-vax messages. That does not in itself discredit any of these things. I am personally benefitting from brexit.

i have a little rule that i always stick to i do the opposite of what the overall majority are telling me to do. 

those who shout the loudest are often those most affected. ;)  

people voted for many different reasons maybe your siblings like approval from the same parents but not each other. 

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