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3 minutes ago, flb said:

What I'd like to know is why nobody takes into account the other option: 0 type of benefits. No UBI, no UC, nothing. Now, it's not that I hate anyone, because I don't. I just don't think that I owe anyone a living, that's all.

The alternative way is: if you can't beat'em join 'em.....I doubt most would choose to.

... when looking for help once it was suggested I to go on benefits.... thankfully did not take up the offer, might have got a free home, bells and whistles etc.....best thing I ever did was to do it myself no help required, worked hard worked my way and paid my way.....I don't look at people claiming and collecting free food as fortunate or resent them, they are wholely dependant on handouts and help from others and or the state.....it is good that we no longer have poor houses, and homeless people, I would not like to see us going back to the days before the welfare state of begging on streets and seeing children in rags living on the street.;)

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2 minutes ago, winkie said:

I don't look at people claiming and collecting free food as fortunate or resent them

I don't resent them. I just don't understand why everyone assumes that I owe them a living.

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11 minutes ago, winkie said:

What makes you think you owe them a living?....never looked upon it like that.;)

Oh. Where do you think they're getting the money from? Surely you don't think it's Boris paying those benefits from his own pocket? Do you think it's got anything to do with this?

image.thumb.png.b1da949e9a3488c8a5fb911948e32c4b.png

It kind of seems to me like I'm supporting two families (two families, not two people) and I'm not exactly sure why I supposedly owe them a living.

No, I don't resent them, I don't hate them, I don't ... anything "them", but it's a bit difficult for me to be fan of forced socialism under the circumstances.

Edited by flb
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12 minutes ago, flb said:

Oh. Where do you think they're getting the money from? Surely you don't think it's Boris paying those benefits from his own pocket?

It's only money they with the help of the bank of England help create.....wars cost billions, I would rather money is spent on people than on wars.....would rather spend on people than pumped into the housing market, the stock market or many other wasteful things  public money is used for quangos for a start.

....but you could say all the unnecessary wasteful spending creates jobs and pays wages for people who if had no job would be in the queue at the food bank... everything is cyclical......where you or anyone is all depends where they sit in the circle.;)

 

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1 hour ago, flb said:

...I would rather not pay over 10% in tax, but that's just me.

I would like to pay no tax and think the very poor are probably all lazy so should be put in bin bags and thrown in the Thames. I don’t tell anyone though....because I will probably be elected 😉

Either that or I can take my path, know how lucky I am, treat all how I want to be treated, think kindly of others, give generously (and want to give generously) despite knowing I may have been taken advantage of many times.....but I can’t let that stop me. I guess I am a mug but I can afford to be. A champagne socialist knowing the majority will keep me in the manner to which I have become accustomed whilst I can be relieved of guilt because it’s how ‘the many‘ want the world be be. 

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19 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

Either that or I can take my path, know how lucky I am, treat all how I want to be treated, think kindly of others, give generously (and want to give generously) despite knowing I may have been taken advantage of many times.....but I can’t let that stop me. I guess I am a mug but I can afford to be. A champagne socialist knowing the majority will keep me in the manner to which I have become accustomed whilst I can be relieved of guilt because it’s how ‘the many‘ want the world be be. 

Well, I too would be very generous with Bill Gates' money.

When it comes to my own, I think 100k/year might be a bit too generous for someone like me. I can understand supporting one person who can't work, but I kind of think they wouldn't need that much - and it certainly doesn't feel like I'm using 100k in public services either, especially if I step outside and see the 120421 potholes that haven't been fixed in the past 5 years.

It's nice the the council is increasing council tax to support older people - which are not related to me in any way whatsoever - though. 

If you really do feel that way, though, I would ask that you put your money where your mouth is. Go ahead, spend 6 months (it doesn't take longer to learn my "trade") make this money and try to look happy when you're taxed.

...but I'm guessing your schedule is kind of too busy for that, right?

18 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

know how lucky I am,

Yes, indeed, that's EXACTLY how it works. You buy a ticket and you win a job. It's all luck.

Edited by flb
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8 minutes ago, flb said:

Well, I too would be very generous with Bill Gates' money.

When it comes to my own, I think 100k/year might be a bit too generous for someone like me. I can understand supporting one person who can't work, but I kind of think they wouldn't need that much - and it certainly doesn't feel like I'm using 100k in public services either, especially if I step outside and see the 120421 potholes that haven't been fixed in the past 5 years.

It's nice the the council is increasing council tax to support older people - which are not related to me in any way whatsoever - though. 

If you really do feel that way, though, I would ask that you put your money where your mouth is. Go ahead, spend 6 months (it doesn't take longer to learn my "trade") make this money and try to look happy when you're taxed.

...but I'm guessing your schedule is kind of too busy for that, right?

Busy? Er...nope that must be someone else. 

The majority like yourself have spoken for me. I can hypocritically believe one thing and take advantage of the opportunities the current system has given me. 

I can now happily sit at the near top of the tree (even perhaps above the starry heights of your ‘trade’) and look down in bewilderment at the fact the majority keep me in this position. 

You convinced me a while ago no UBI...I just think you may have the appetite to take it further so I can keep all my money. Happy days for me. 

I think we get it, you question UBI...challenge the nature of human endeavour, the desire to work, create and a thirst by many to produce and the beauty of work.  You prefer to believe if you don’t pay for things then things don’t get done. You may be right but that doesn’t make it right....but not every can agree with a pessimistic view of the human condition. Some still have hope...let us keep it.😉

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3 hours ago, flb said:

What I'd like to know is why nobody takes into account the other option: 0 type of benefits. No UBI, no UC, nothing. Now, it's not that I hate anyone, because I don't. I just don't think that I owe anyone a living, that's all.

I was assuming that was not being taken into account.

It probably will happen if the current system is not reformed.

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8 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Why not UBJ = Universal Basic Job - everyone who can't find a job gets given a job doing something for their UBI?

As UBI is low it would not be that many hours - it could be just keeping several streets free of dog's mess for x hours a week?  Or beaches free of plastic if you live near the sea.

I will be first in the queue

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3 hours ago, flb said:

I don't resent them. I just don't understand why everyone assumes that I owe them a living.

Its the difference between society and savagery. Or its a form of insurance we contribute to to stop us being robbed and/or seing starving people in the street like in some countries Ive seen. Also as money is an abstact of what we think it is you are not subsidising anyone as the money is magicked into existance, given to recipients who spend all of it in shops who then pay wages and tax which is used to balance the abstract books and curb inflation by not letting you spend all that you think you earn.

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I like to think in terms of shared resources. If I have to pay to occupy land, I should also be paid proportionally for all the land I don't occupy.

Really though, its a great tool for thinking about the overall system. "every one is responsible for themselves" is utterly true on an individual level. But you can't analyse systems of millions of individuals by thinking about individual behaviour and ethics and duties. The "law of large numbers" takes over. Statistics wins over individual autonomy and responsibility.

I like to think about how the system works, how many people suffer, how many people thrive, how many game the system, how many are played. What would be an ideal system to maximise wealth, individual autonomy, standard of living, and minimise suffering, and exploitation? I don't believe the current system does that.

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1 hour ago, steve99 said:

Its the difference between society and savagery. Or its a form of insurance we contribute to to stop us being robbed and/or seing starving people in the street like in some countries Ive seen. Also as money is an abstact of what we think it is you are not subsidising anyone as the money is magicked into existance, given to recipients who spend all of it in shops who then pay wages and tax which is used to balance the abstract books and curb inflation by not letting you spend all that you think you earn.

I don't want to live in a society without benefits (I might need them one day).

However they are more generous now than at the beginning of 20th and there is more crime than then, so that has not worked.

Not saying I want to get rid of them - just reform them - otherwise I think they will be abolished.

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Most human beings never see themselves dying. 

We are all just passing through planet earth and time is the one thing that is in short supply for all of us, yet most want to waste the majority of it it doing non jobs for bent fiat.  The retardness of it all is hilarious.

You are FAR better having an old car and paid for small shelter working 3 days a week, than a p1sh PCP deal, massive mortgage and a 60 hour week, with no time to breathe.

 

Fook the USA/UK WASP  "work will get you into heaven" capitalist system.  It's exactly the same as the Catholic Church in the middle ages controlling people with the threat of hell or being burned at the stake.

 

Both only work if you keep the 99% poor and stupid.  Both systems are laughable.

Edited by Social Justice League
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13 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Why not UBJ = Universal Basic Job - everyone who can't find a job gets given a job doing something for their UBI?

The government have just assigned 3 X UBJ new starters to work with you starting next week

One of them is a heroin addict, one is in a wheel chair and the other is fresh out of jail after serving a term for GBH on his last employer.

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8 hours ago, Habeas Domus said:

The government have just assigned 3 X UBJ new starters to work with you starting next week

One of them is a heroin addict, one is in a wheel chair and the other is fresh out of jail after serving a term for GBH on his last employer.

Fair point - does not mean that workfare would be better than the current system.  Also in this case two of them would be keeping streets clean on their own - and the other would get benefits.

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9 hours ago, Social Justice League said:

Most human beings never see themselves dying. 

We are all just passing through planet earth and time is the one thing that is in short supply for all of us, yet most want to waste the majority of it it doing non jobs for bent fiat.  The retardness of it all is hilarious.

You are FAR better having an old car and paid for small shelter working 3 days a week, than a p1sh PCP deal, massive mortgage and a 60 hour week, with no time to breathe.

 

Fook the USA/UK WASP  "work will get you into heaven" capitalist system.  It's exactly the same as the Catholic Church in the middle ages controlling people with the threat of hell or being burned at the stake.

 

Both only work if you keep the 99% poor and stupid.  Both systems are laughable.

Literally my life, work 3 days a week, 4 bed house (small mortgage), some investments.

Buy a 3 year old car, every 3 years. Aged 33, take life easy and enjoy my free time. 

Get to nurture my children, educate them,  literally people on my street killing themselves, just to keep a roof over their head.

Cba to earn 50k+ to pay all that tax and NI... pointless.

Money can be made in a much easier fashion, without being overly taxed. Cash is king.

Imo, earning 50k+ paye, is actually insane.

Edited by Speed1987
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2 hours ago, Speed1987 said:

Literally my life, work 3 days a week, 4 bed house (small mortgage), some investments.

Buy a 3 year old car, every 3 years. Aged 33, take life easy and enjoy my free time. 

Get to nurture my children, educate them,  literally people on my street killing themselves, just to keep a roof over their head.

Cba to earn 50k+ to pay all that tax and NI... pointless.

Money can be made in a much easier fashion, without being overly taxed. Cash is king.

Imo, earning 50k+ paye, is actually insane.

Just curious, how much do you pay for that house, how much do you still owe the bank and how much do you earn? If you're willing to tell me, of course...

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On 04/09/2020 at 23:46, Social Justice League said:

Most human beings never see themselves dying. 

We are all just passing through planet earth and time is the one thing that is in short supply for all of us, yet most want to waste the majority of it it doing non jobs for bent fiat.  The retardness of it all is hilarious

Yup I'd agree with you there, the price of the big ticket purchases, houses, cars is rocketing. Was looking on Autotrader at second hand cars and prices are crazy. A 150k joint income soon going to be needed to buy what a 40k joint income did in the early 00's, the death of the middle classes is in full motion. We're all supposed to double down working jobs for fiat that is rapidly losing value and most are too dumb to even notice what's going on. As for saving for retirement goes 300k pot to get 8k a year pension is a joke.

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  • 433 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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