captainb Posted May 21, 2020 Author Share Posted May 21, 2020 Just now, Warlord said: Keep us updated @captainb if he updates his followers etc. Will do - there is a lot on facebook if people google / search for it. Touchstone education / Paul smith is what to search for. To be fair to them, a lot of BTL landlords are saying he is advising fraudulent activity and seem to be moderately horrified by it. His view is he will get away with it so why not? Sadly a lot of corporate landlords are saying they have received the £50k already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, captainb said: His view is he will get away with it so why not? He is risking jail time. I seriously hope people aren't actually following this nonsense. You should try and talk them out of it. I don't use Facebook. Edited May 21, 2020 by Warlord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainb Posted May 21, 2020 Author Share Posted May 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Warlord said: He is risking jail time. I seriously hope people aren't actually following this nonsense. You should try and talk them out of it. I don't use Facebook. Can do. I guess from his viewpoint / theirs, worst case they say whoops i put a wrong figure in the self cert form? 999/1000 cases wont get found out to reach that stage. Not sure the legislation is actually there on this (useless bill) to give jail time - but would be very happy to be wrong on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 1 minute ago, captainb said: Can do. I guess from his viewpoint / theirs, worst case they say whoops i put a wrong figure in the self cert form? 999/1000 cases wont get found out to reach that stage. Not sure the legislation is actually there on this (useless bill) to give jail time - but would be very happy to be wrong on that. The problem for him is that he is trying to encourage others. I would think a judge would take a dim view of these activities. There are all sorts of fraud laws on the books i'm sure there would be something applicable. I'm not an expert.. this whole thing is wrong and that much is obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhole Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, captainb said: Not sure the legislation is actually there on this (useless bill) to give jail time - but would be very happy to be wrong on that. Do correct me if i'm wrong, but knowingly falsifying inputs on a self-cert application is still ... fraud?! IIRC HMRC can go after directors post-closure if they believe there's been foul play by the directors (they seem a bit lawless at the best of times...) At least you observed that BTL landlords realise this is fraud ... some relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainb Posted May 21, 2020 Author Share Posted May 21, 2020 Just now, blackhole said: Do correct me if i'm wrong, but knowingly falsifying inputs on a self-cert application is still ... fraud?! IIRC HMRC can go after directors post-closure if they believe there's been foul play by the directors (they seem a bit lawless at the best of times...) At least you observed that BTL landlords realise this is fraud ... some relief. Yes - HMRC can - but seldom do. Someone getting £50k out, declaring a dividend to themselves. Then folding. While totally against what the scheme was nominally designed to do, i would think has a very good chance of getting away with it - if HMRC enforcement is anything to go by. Bank has no incentive whatsoever to investigate as it is 100% taxpayer back. HMRC its £50k which for them, even if they go through the court process and disclosure etc. is not a big target for their rather understaffed teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 I can believe some will apply for the loan and get it where they have no intention of paying but not many will get away with it. Less still will be able to use the money for BTL. Apart from anything else the £50k loan would need 200k turnover. When you apply for the BTL you need to show where the 50k came from and perhaps show accounts. In the end a lie that big is fraud and don’t be thinking the little people will be allowed to get away with it. Remember this government hate the self employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhole Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, satsuma said: Remember this government hate the self employed. Not wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, blackhole said: Not wrong.... Yep and one result is they can’t get the basics like a face mask made here in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainb Posted May 21, 2020 Author Share Posted May 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, satsuma said: Apart from anything else the £50k loan would need 200k turnover. Not quite true. It needs you to put 200,000 in a box on a form to get the cash. Rather different than actually having to have had the turnover. Giving out cash without checks is madness and its only come about due to tabloid press pressure. The banks wouldn't touch it without a 100% guarantee they would get all their money back in defaults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 48 minutes ago, captainb said: Not quite true. It needs you to put 200,000 in a box on a form to get the cash. Rather different than actually having to have had the turnover. Giving out cash without checks is madness and its only come about due to tabloid press pressure. The banks wouldn't touch it without a 100% guarantee they would get all their money back in defaults. Well that would be fraud at the end of the day. Maybe some will chance it. Easy enough to check against company house records so hopefully not too many get through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainb Posted May 22, 2020 Author Share Posted May 22, 2020 9 hours ago, satsuma said: Well that would be fraud at the end of the day. Maybe some will chance it. Easy enough to check against company house records so hopefully not too many get through Agreed but as there are no checks being carried out anyone that tries will. You need to provide no evidence and as its turnover to year ended 31.12.19 vast majority will not have public accounts for this yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, captainb said: Agreed but as there are no checks being carried out anyone that tries will. You need to provide no evidence and as its turnover to year ended 31.12.19 vast majority will not have public accounts for this yet. Hard to believe they wouldn’t check it but sadly this is the banana state we now live in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manteiga3 Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 It’s an interest free government backed 50k loan (initially) . I guess it’s just like a business form of what the banks get but for a much smaller amount of money. Some are doing very well out of the lockdown. Basically, the whole nation is being funded by borrowing on the back of about 3 or 4 remaining taxpayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluestone59 Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 Convictions for fraud fell to a record low (16%) last year. The fraud as ever is on the taxpayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebull Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 14 hours ago, captainb said: Not quite true. It needs you to put 200,000 in a box on a form to get the cash. Rather different than actually having to have had the turnover. Giving out cash without checks is madness and its only come about due to tabloid press pressure. The banks wouldn't touch it without a 100% guarantee they would get all their money back in defaults. Is there not a possibility that HMRC will argue that if the banks have accepted fraudulent forms and not checked they bear some of the costs? Is it not so that the guarantee applies to companies who had 200k of whatever - turnover? - but not to those who don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainb Posted May 22, 2020 Author Share Posted May 22, 2020 Just now, ebull said: Is there not a possibility that HMRC will argue that if the banks have accepted fraudulent forms and not checked they bear some of the costs? Is it not so that the guarantee applies to companies who had 200k of whatever - turnover? - but not to those who don't? The banks had no interest in doing these loans. They are totally noncommercial. HMRC is taking on all the risk. Even boasting that 69,000 loans were dished out on the first day. They are well aware that no checks are being done in that timeframe. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over-69000-loans-approved-in-the-first-day-of-the-bounce-back-loan-scheme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed1987 Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 Honestly, after watching the video I only wish, I was within an active limited company right now. If the goverment are dumb enough to give away 50k without personal guarantee, take the money... He's not defrauding us, the goverment are by allowing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 21 hours ago, Bluestone59 said: Convictions for fraud fell to a record low (16%) last year. The fraud as ever is on the taxpayer. HMRC won't be going for conviction. They'll be going for settlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainb Posted May 23, 2020 Author Share Posted May 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said: HMRC won't be going for conviction. They'll be going for settlement. Chuck all the cash out the door first to anyone and everyone and then scramble to possibly, maybe get it back five years later. Good luck for people who have left the country etc Easy to spend other peoples money isnt it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, captainb said: Chuck all the cash out the door first to anyone and everyone and then scramble to possibly, maybe get it back five years later. Good luck for people who have left the country etc Easy to spend other peoples money isnt it... HMRC on your back is not nice They can also come after you for 7 years later. Hopefully they catch up with this guy Edited May 23, 2020 by Warlord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, captainb said: Chuck all the cash out the door first to anyone and everyone and then scramble to possibly, maybe get it back five years later. Good luck for people who have left the country etc Easy to spend other peoples money isnt it... Good luck taking a 50k loan and paying out as divs without paying corporation and personal tax and not expecting HMRC to come knocking. BTW it's my understanding that the regulation surrounding these loans hasn't actually been sign off yet. Banks worried they are on the hook. Good opportunity for HMG to spread the load when they are chasing defaults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, Warlord said: HMRC on your back is not nice They can also come after you for 7 years later. Hopefully they catch up with this guy Time limits are out the window for fraud they can pursue at their leisure while interest and penalties build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST675R Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 I have to say this thought did cross my mind. We rent an industrial unit for our business which is 'worth' around 120K so 50K would be nearly enough for 50% deposit (as I understand it what the depsits normally are) There are brand new empty units on our estate. The fly in the ointment is after the first year we would end up paying a lot more back every month that we do now in rent so not really of any benefit especially considering commercial property generally depreciates. With the renting I can just keep moving to new units as and when my old one gets ratty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Just now, 2buyornot2buy said: Time limits are out the window for fraud they can pursue at their leisure while interest and penalties build. I have some experience with them over a late filing and the interest and penalties don't half mount up. Had to pay them off though and that was the end of it. Lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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