6weeks until Brexit no deal

[Huggy]

15 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I do. I am writing a book on how a certain type of person can be scammed to behave against their own interests. They are highly susceptible.

Despite the evidence, they need to believe in something bigger than themselves and it's religious by nature. My research points out that the cult urge is strong among these types. They need something beyond their own lives. They're miserable without this fairy tale compensation.

Manipulating them is easy and it's worked through history. Recent examples include the Nazis, Jonestown, The Moonies, Scientology, Trump and Brexit.

Can I design the cover please? I have some good ideas on the colours and imagery that will appeal to your desired audience! Have a look at some posters for the FX TV series "The Americans" for an insight into my 'creative' process.

[Bob8]

11 minutes ago, warpig said:

I wasn't scammed by Brexit, I'm well read on the subject.

Cool, would you be able to answer the clarification below? Thanks!

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

I have asked on several forums for clarification on what is actually wanted.

We cannot leave the single market and customs union, maintain the Good Fridat agreement, and also maintain the integrity of the EU. For discussing what people want a deal or no deal brexit to look like, they should first clarify which two they want:

- Leave the SM/CU

- Maitain the GFA

- Maintain the UK

Then it will be possible to have a discussion. I would sacrifice the first, as that is what the Leave campaign said they wanted during the referendum campaign, and I think democracy matters. Others can disagree, but clarifiying that starting point is necessary.

 

[micawber]

2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Thanks for your contribution towards my book. Despite having a lot of rich materiel already, I shall put a contributor's attribution from you at the end. It's good to have something whose name suggests something good will turn up.

Brexit was never about the EU for its instigators. The same and only people who will see a dividend from it.

I don't really give a fig about the instigators and what they wanted. They provided a useful vehicle for me to achieve my objective. I'm only disappointed that the folks on the other side of the argument aren't putting more effort into creating that something better. Many seem constrained by the current EU structures in their thinking. It wont work.

[Bruce Banner]

3 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Can I design the cover please? I have some good ideas on the colours and imagery that will appeal to your desired audience! Have a look at some posters for the FX TV series "The Americans" for an insight into my 'creative' process.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Bruce Banner

[Bob8]

12 minutes ago, micawber said:

Brexit was different things to different people (I'm trying to help you with your book!). For me, it was an opportunity to undermine a fatally flawed orginization in the hope of something better eventually being created. Job done as far as I'm able.

I think it comes down to traditionalists against modernisers.

Lots of people have missed out in the modern world, and they tended to vote Leave. The people who are more comfortable with the modern world voted Remain. Neither side is more intelligent or rational.

People who have seen their status would have been respectable working class a generation ago, but are now falling lower down will not want to vote for the modern world.

[crouch]

15 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Brexit has always been about selling the UK down the river. Multiple dodgy, under-the-table deals particularly with the USA. I am sure there are a few Tories a bit put out about the way the China thing has worked out - they were in line to make a fortune out of Hinkley Point and the Huawei deals.

OTT, gloriously so. Conspiracy theories abound, nothing is what is seems, everyone is venal, politics is all confidence tricks, take no ones word for anything.

Of course if all the above is right then these idiosyncratic views are themselves nonsense which is where an ounce of common sense leads us.

[Huggy]

1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said:

Red was the main colour of the cover actually!

Gold writing, in a cyrillic style though, but mainly red!

 

[crouch]

20 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I think it comes down to traditionalists against modernisers.

Lots of people have missed out in the modern world, and they tended to vote Leave. The people who are more comfortable with the modern world voted Remain. Neither side is more intelligent or rational.

People who have seen their status would have been respectable working class a generation ago, but are now falling lower down will not want to vote for the modern world.

Is the EU so modern? There are 200 countries in the World; why are they not clamouring to be mini or maxi EUs - because I don't think they are?

Why is a vibrant country like Switzerland "traditional" whereas a bloc of 27 disparate nations which spends an awful lot of time trying to find common ground is regarded as "modern"?

Why should the "economies of scale" argument trump the "nimbleness" factor?

Why is size regarded as being of such value in Europe whereas it has no salience anywhere else by and large?

You assume that which requires to be demonstrated.

Edited May 24, 2020 by crouch

[micawber]

29 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I think it comes down to traditionalists against modernisers.

Lots of people have missed out in the modern world, and they tended to vote Leave. The people who are more comfortable with the modern world voted Remain. Neither side is more intelligent or rational.

People who have seen their status would have been respectable working class a generation ago, but are now falling lower down will not want to vote for the modern world.

Some of it will be that. But I see myself as an ultra-modernist wanting a brighter future without (old country) national governments, and the remainers as traditionalists wanting to stick with what they know - afraid of something better/newer.

[Bob8]

21 minutes ago, crouch said:

Is the EU so modern? There are 200 countries in the World; why are they not clamouring to be mini or maxi EUs - because I don't think they are?

Why is a vibrant country like Switzerland "traditional" whereas a bloc of 27 disparate nations which spends an awful lot of time trying to find common ground is regarded as "modern"?

Why should the "economies of scale" argument trump the "nimbleness" factor?

Why is size regarded as being of such value in Europe whereas it has no salience anywhere else by and large?

You assume that which requires to be demonstrated.

I did not state the EU was modern.

The split between the vote was not straight forward. The main predictors were age and to a lesser extent education level (I am not taking that as intellect).

I think a few questions can probably predict which way a person voted:
1) How much has your home town changed since you were 25?

2) Are you skeptical of global warming?

3) Does the modern world properly respect people like you?

The archetypal Leave voter is a old, unqualified white man in town like Boston, who thinks global warming is nonsense. He is of a group that has seen life be transformed in the modern world, and feels people like him get far less respect than they used to/should do. I would not blame him for wanting the old days back, and not believing in global warming is going to be associated with not seeing things abroad as having anything to do with us. Believes himself to be more moral than the Leaver, who is gullible and brainwashed.

The archetypal Remain voter is young, graduate, living in a shared house in a new field. Probably grew up with Romanian and Polish class mates and thinks of this as normal, accepts global warming as a fact and obvious. Thinks people who live in the past are bigots who do not respect people like her and she does not want those days back. Believes himself to be smarterl than the Remainer, who is gullible and brainwashed.

[sammersmith]

2 hours ago, Bob8 said:

- Maitain the GFA

I don't understand why the Good Friday Agreement is jeopardised by the UK leaving the EU, or indeed the EU's sudden interest in this given their lack of involvement during its signing. 

The EU were mentioned in passing as part of the agreement, granted, but the withdrawal agreement clearly states that N.Ireland is treated differently from GB. This is a massive concession from the UK government that Ireland and the EU should respect. 

[Bob8]

Just now, sammersmith said:

I don't understand why the Good Friday Agreement is jeopardised by the UK leaving the EU, or indeed the EU's sudden interest in this given their lack of involvement during its signing. 

The EU were mentioned in passing as part of the agreement, granted, but the withdrawal agreement clearly states that N.Ireland is treated differently from GB. This is a massive concession from the UK government that Ireland and the EU should respect. 

Because you would be putting a hard border in Ireland between the EU bits and non EU bits. Obviously.

TBH, confirming that NI can be EU (Irish) and non-EU (British) at the same time is going to be difficult. Unless, you put a border in the Irish sea as Cummings favours and give up on the integrity of the UK.

But, you have had a good five years to think about it. What is your answer?

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

2 hours ago, micawber said:

I don't really give a fig about the instigators and what they wanted. They provided a useful vehicle for me to achieve my objective. I'm only disappointed that the folks on the other side of the argument aren't putting more effort into creating that something better. Many seem constrained by the current EU structures in their thinking. It wont work.

More proof Brexit has failed.

 

[sammersmith]

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

Because you would be putting a hard border in Ireland between the EU bits and non EU bits. Obviously.

Not obviously. Clearly the withdrawal agreement gives up the hard Northern/Republic border in favour of a hard Ireland / GB one. This is the concession i speak of and it is a big one. I can't see other EU countries agreeing to something like this for their own territory. 

3 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

TBH, confirming that NI can be EU (Irish) and non-EU (British) at the same time is going to be difficult.

It was difficult but it's been agreed now. Case closed. Move on. 

7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

give up on the integrity of the UK

Most people in GB just hope Ireland, both parts of it, move on together in peace. 

4 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

What is your answer?

I've given you the answer. It's a solved problem that the UK gave ground on and the EU gave nothing. Even Sinn Fein and the DUP don't seem to mention it anymore.

[crouch]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

I did not state the EU was modern.

The split between the vote was not straight forward. The main predictors were age and to a lesser extent education level (I am not taking that as intellect).

I think a few questions can probably predict which way a person voted:
1) How much has your home town changed since you were 25?

2) Are you skeptical of global warming?

3) Does the modern world properly respect people like you?

The archetypal Leave voter is a old, unqualified white man in town like Boston, who thinks global warming is nonsense. He is of a group that has seen life be transformed in the modern world, and feels people like him get far less respect than they used to/should do. I would not blame him for wanting the old days back, and not believing in global warming is going to be associated with not seeing things abroad as having anything to do with us. Believes himself to be more moral than the Leaver, who is gullible and brainwashed.

The archetypal Remain voter is young, graduate, living in a shared house in a new field. Probably grew up with Romanian and Polish class mates and thinks of this as normal, accepts global warming as a fact and obvious. Thinks people who live in the past are bigots who do not respect people like her and she does not want those days back. Believes himself to be smarterl than the Remainer, who is gullible and brainwashed.

I was coming from the perspective of how people perceive the EU rather than what they are. Modernism vs traditionalist is a perception which may relate to what they are - in other words there's a correlation - but nevertheless is a different way of looking at things.

[IMHAL]

3 hours ago, micawber said:

No need to find unicorns. That argument has been won and we are leaving the EU.

Please don't waste your time and energy trawling over dry old arguments. I have shown you the way to proceed. Now its up to you.

You are a bit like those people who want Gadafi of Sadam gone at any cost because they are evil men (and they are). Unfortunately, they did so, at any cost. The cost element of leaving is being tallied and will continue to be tallied....we will find out if it has been worth it.

[sammersmith]

55 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

You are a bit like those people who want Gadafi of Sadam gone at any cost because they are evil men (and they are). Unfortunately, they did so, at any cost. The cost element of leaving is being tallied and will continue to be tallied....we will find out if it has been worth it.

I don't intend to be rude, but could you explain why remainers always put forward tenuous metaphors in an attempt to prove a point?

[IMHAL]

1 hour ago, sammersmith said:

I don't intend to be rude, but could you explain why remainers always put forward tenuous metaphors in an attempt to prove a point?

I wouldn't say always, occasionally maybe and the reason is because logic has proved not to work. 

[Bob8]

2 hours ago, sammersmith said:

Not obviously. Clearly the withdrawal agreement gives up the hard Northern/Republic border in favour of a hard Ireland / GB one. This is the concession i speak of and it is a big one. I can't see other EU countries agreeing to something like this for their own territory. 

It was difficult but it's been agreed now. Case closed. Move on. 

Most people in GB just hope Ireland, both parts of it, move on together in peace. 

I've given you the answer. It's a solved problem that the UK gave ground on and the EU gave nothing. Even Sinn Fein and the DUP don't seem to mention it anymore.

Yes, and I am very happy for you.

So, you would sacrifice the integrity of the UK?

Thanks, this is actually rather decent of you. Seriously, in hte years I have been asking this, you are the first brexit supporter to give me a straight answer.

This is obviously more than was discussed in the referdum, during which Leave said they would remain in the Single Market.

[sammersmith]

2 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

I wouldn't say always, occasionally maybe

Fair enough. 

2 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

the reason is because logic has proved not to work

It's a bit of a stretch to compare the overthrowing of Gaddafi / Saddam, and subsequent power vacuum, to another poster's statement that we're out the EU.

To use a metaphor (of a metaphor) myself, this is a bit like the landlords claiming they are being persecuted in the same way as the Jewish people during the Holocaust.   

[Bob8]

2 hours ago, crouch said:

I was coming from the perspective of how people perceive the EU rather than what they are. Modernism vs traditionalist is a perception which may relate to what they are - in other words there's a correlation - but nevertheless is a different way of looking at things.

Fair enough.

[winkie]

The EU is no way perfect.....but a better way of changing what is wrong with it when with innit.... innit.?

 

[sammersmith]

12 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

So, you would sacrifice the integrity of the UK?

I wouldn't say sacrifice. I actually think, if the N.Irish look at this objectively (with no religious / nationalist bias, which i accept is difficult), then the half in half out approach actually gives N.Ireland a unique standing that may be seen as a driver for investment. Much like an enterprise zone. I believe Sturgeon even complained about this and asked why Scotland couldn't have the same deal. 

I, personally, am not concerned what N.Ireland does (wrt it remaining part of the UK) as long as the majority are happy with the outcome. I don't fear for the loss of territory. Indeed, i wouldn't care if Scotland left either if that is what the Scottish people want.  

Edited May 24, 2020 by sammersmith

[sammersmith]

6 minutes ago, winkie said:

but a better way of changing what is wrong with it when with innit

Nice idea, however has Cameron has shown, the EU changes nothing even with the threat of one of its biggest contributors half way out the door. 

[winkie]

1 hour ago, sammersmith said:

Nice idea, however has Cameron has shown, the EU changes nothing even with the threat of one of its biggest contributors half way out the door. 

All interdependent.?