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Neither a borrower nor a lender be


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Neither a borrower nor a lender be

Even if you are only in your 40-50s there used to be a time when  I can remember  where borrowing used to be frowned upon, that guy who always had a habit of tapping you up for a tenner 3 days before payday, those constantly buying on the never never were seen as undisciplined financial illiterates. Nobody had a credit card, and when I think hard to have hundreds or even thousands of pounds on hock was just a terrifying thought years ago and it stigmatised the individual that did it.  I remember the first days of relaxation of money lending as do many others, it was shocking to me and others, it gave the exact feeling of when those first  British fighter bombers bombed Iraq, it felt like WW3 had started, now we just bomb anyone like we are the worlds policemen and got used to it, just like debt.

Now saying that some borrowing was necessary, if it was controlled and justified and given on the basis you had a sound reason and plan and was checked , then yes. I can remember those old mortgages given to someone who wanted no more than a home and the maximum mortgage allowed was 2.5 times the wage your earned, and those taking the mortgage sat up to 3 am in the morning more than once probably with pen to paper and planning and  thinking about what they were about to take on.

Today in lockdown and in the very early stages of this economic downturn  I am watching  firms and businesses and individuals finances crumbling, falling apart so easily, just weeks into a lockdown and their cashflow wrecked. How tight are peoples margins, how much debt were they drowning in, barely a month into a lockdown and companies finished, there is no way that C-19 is the cause of all of this, if not this virus then something else would have caused this.

Is this now the dawn of a new age where borrowing is frowned upon and saving is the way to go again, will now those with huge mortgage debt taken on smugly  be the new underclass who take over the mantle from the free of debt who stood solid and looked at factual logic and resisted the easy way?

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1 hour ago, crumblingcon said:

Neither a borrower nor a lender be

Even if you are only in your 40-50s there used to be a time when  I can remember  where borrowing used to be frowned upon, that guy who always had a habit of tapping you up for a tenner 3 days before payday, those constantly buying on the never never were seen as undisciplined financial illiterates. Nobody had a credit card, and when I think hard to have hundreds or even thousands of pounds on hock was just a terrifying thought years ago and it stigmatised the individual that did it.  I remember the first days of relaxation of money lending as do many others, it was shocking to me and others, it gave the exact feeling of when those first  British fighter bombers bombed Iraq, it felt like WW3 had started, now we just bomb anyone like we are the worlds policemen and got used to it, just like debt.

Now saying that some borrowing was necessary, if it was controlled and justified and given on the basis you had a sound reason and plan and was checked , then yes. I can remember those old mortgages given to someone who wanted no more than a home and the maximum mortgage allowed was 2.5 times the wage your earned, and those taking the mortgage sat up to 3 am in the morning more than once probably with pen to paper and planning and  thinking about what they were about to take on.

Today in lockdown and in the very early stages of this economic downturn  I am watching  firms and businesses and individuals finances crumbling, falling apart so easily, just weeks into a lockdown and their cashflow wrecked. How tight are peoples margins, how much debt were they drowning in, barely a month into a lockdown and companies finished, there is no way that C-19 is the cause of all of this, if not this virus then something else would have caused this.

Is this now the dawn of a new age where borrowing is frowned upon and saving is the way to go again, will now those with huge mortgage debt taken on smugly  be the new underclass who take over the mantle from the free of debt who stood solid and looked at factual logic and resisted the easy way?

I remember those times, instilled in me by my parents and grand parents - if you want a car, holiday, house etc earning and saving was the only route. Something I have passed on to my children.

I'd love to think we go back to that as a society, but sadly I can't see it. The governments/central banks only see one way out these days more debt for everyone via cheap money.

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5 minutes ago, Smiley George said:

I remember those times, instilled in me by my parents and grand parents - if you want a car, holiday, house etc earning and saving was the only route. Something I have passed on to my children.

I'd love to think we go back to that as a society, but sadly I can't see it. The governments/central banks only see one way out these days more debt for everyone via cheap money.

 

Me too. It particularly enraged me when I saw an article recently begging for bailouts for those struggling with PCP and lease payments for cars. Just no - assuming they've made 12 payments of say £400 a time, they could have bought a ~5K car which likely would have served them OK, and not landed them with ongoing commitments they now can't afford. Financially incompetent f***wits, but sadly they seem to get bailed out again and again.

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2 hours ago, crumblingcon said:

 I remember the first days of relaxation of money lending as do many others, it was shocking to me and others, it gave the exact feeling of when those first  British fighter bombers bombed Iraq, it felt like WW3 had started, now we just bomb anyone like we are the worlds policemen and got used to it, just like debt.

You seemed to have de-railed your own thread in the OP with this odd analogy - I think you are confusing us with the US on bombing.

On debt, I agree with you.

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47 minutes ago, dpg50000 said:

 

Me too. It particularly enraged me when I saw an article recently begging for bailouts for those struggling with PCP and lease payments for cars. Just no - assuming they've made 12 payments of say £400 a time, they could have bought a ~5K car which likely would have served them OK, and not landed them with ongoing commitments they now can't afford. Financially incompetent f***wits, but sadly they seem to get bailed out again and again.

These firms totally justify what they asking, but they are basically that 20 year old lad who spent his wages over the weekend and is now trying to ponce 20 quid of you. I hoping and not quite as pessimistic as many that we are going to realise how out of control we become with taking debt on. I have seen enough in life to understand if enough people in suits with soft friendly voices and who are in positions of power tell you something is OK it is amazing how people follow along against their better judgement, evil acts even.

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Be interested to see how the PCP works out, if I was a Volkswagen exec seeing PCP bailouts after the emissions  scandal I be feeling pretty clever and that I could do what I like.  Pump up the price of cars and get people to rent them (PCP in practice), lie on the emissions and run down the build quality

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In recent years hugely over priced homes have only been available to those willing to look at the debt they need to take on and saying f*** it,  whether it is total financially illiteracy or just a nagging nesting wife that wants you "to be a man and look after the family", your options are really narrowed down apart from huge wage or business potential or inheritance.

Must be like a torture for many who sat down and did the maths and realised this is going to crash at the first black swan, which could take several years, or hold to your logical principles and be treated like a 2nd class citizen for the time being.

I really do hope some high profile media sniff this website out occasionally, there is more truth here than most

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There's a whole education that the elites don't want you to have, otherwise they can't control you.

The ability to think objectively, weigh up options, test the NULL hypothesis, financial literacy.  It's no surprise that almost every MP studied PPE, but no form of Polities, Philosophy, or Economic understanding is taught in the state sector.

I had a traditional home education alongside my state education. Hated every min of in being stuck indoors whilst my mates went out, however it paid off in spades.

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I trust that by now on HPC everyone understands that, under our current debt-based, privately issued  money system, unless collectively we go into debt to the banking cartel, there is no adequate money supply and we have no effective medium of exchange with which to run our economy.

If you are a bank depositor then you are a lender (to the bank) and obviously if you are in debt to the banks then you are a borrower.

Hence the OP's exhortation is in fact a plea for monetary reform, as advocated by positivemoney.

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8 hours ago, crumblingcon said:

In recent years hugely over priced homes have only been available to those willing to look at the debt they need to take on and saying f*** it,  whether it is total financially illiteracy or just a nagging nesting wife that wants you "to be a man and look after the family", your options are really narrowed down apart from huge wage or business potential or inheritance.

Must be like a torture for many who sat down and did the maths and realised this is going to crash at the first black swan, which could take several years, or hold to your logical principles and be treated like a 2nd class citizen for the time being.

I really do hope some high profile media sniff this website out occasionally, there is more truth here than most

Everyone does the maths, it's just that we don't all use the same assumptions.

If you thought near zero interest rates were here to stay it made sense to go out and buy a house anytime in the last 12yrs, if you thought they were a blip it didn't. It turned out they weren't a blip so the people who bought have, so far, won out. 

Whoever makes the wrong choice on such a fundamental issue will treated as a second class system that's just life. 

If house prices now drop 50% many of those who bought will be the new second class citizens struggling to keep their homes and watching those who held off being able to afford far better houses/lives than they have.

Again just life, you make choices and hope you are right, no point in torturing yourself if you get it wrong it's 90% luck anyway.  

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7 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Everyone does the maths, it's just that we don't all use the same assumptions.

If you thought near zero interest rates were here to stay it made sense to go out and buy a house anytime in the last 12yrs, if you thought they were a blip it didn't. It turned out they weren't a blip so the people who bought have, so far, won out. 

Whoever makes the wrong choice on such a fundamental issue will treated as a second class system that's just life. 

If house prices now drop 50% many of those who bought will be the new second class citizens struggling to keep their homes and watching those who held off being able to afford far better houses/lives than they have.

Again just life, you make choices and hope you are right, no point in torturing yourself if you get it wrong it's 90% luck anyway.  

This is a sad situation. It's a home. The ideal would be that you just buy when you're ready, not because you're forced to or you'll forever have a worse house than others.

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15 hours ago, crumblingcon said:

My biggest not on the curriculum  lesson to anyone would be

CONTROL WHAT GOES INTO YOU MIND, BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T SOMEONE ELSE WILL

NLP base concept - if your not driving your bus who is ?

Have an MBA plus a raft  of technology qualifications and leadership training but learning NLP and becoming a master practitioner was the single most useful piece of learning I have ever done 

They say sticks and stones will break your bones but words will never hurt you in fact it’s the complete opposite 

If anyone is interested look at the proper long form residential courses 40 days over 2/3 years - not the online bull or NLP in a weekend rubbish and read the real stuff from Bandler and Grinder 

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55 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

This is a sad situation. It's a home. The ideal would be that you just buy when you're ready, not because you're forced to or you'll forever have a worse house than others.

When the day comes where you have decided that property prices have fallen enough and you can easily afford that  home that you are prepared to live in for a lifetime and with excitement,and people say to you "Ohh that's a terrible idea, you do know property will remain a terrible investment for a while yet", then at that moment you will pinpoint and realise the problem we had in the UK for a couple of decades as you tell them to get to f***

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16 hours ago, crumblingcon said:

My biggest not on the curriculum  lesson to anyone would be

CONTROL WHAT GOES INTO YOU MIND, BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T SOMEONE ELSE WILL

I would add to that the passive observation of your own mind, what some might call meditation.

Much is revealed by dispassionate observation of your own biases, presuppositions and prejudices as they react to 'what goes into your mind'. Maybe the input and the reaction are two aspects of the same unitary process?

I find J Krishnamurti to be particularly insightful.

Edited by The Spaniard
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38 minutes ago, The Spaniard said:

I find J Krishnamurti to be particularly insightful.

Will check it out, something I am interested in anyway. You might laugh though, but found self hypnosis initially one of the best tools out there with similarities to meditation.  But yes, it is all about how you process information, if words, views and opinions from others and even if they are 100% wrong or cruel, if they make you mentally or even physically unwell, then it is your problem that they effect you in that way

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I bought my first house aged 22 at just over 3x my wage. Today aged 22 I would need a wage of £95,000 to buy the same house! Adjusting for inflation i would need 10x my wage. 

Back then I had to sit in front of the bank manager to get the mortgage. Being a civil servant I thought I'd have no trouble. WRONG! Compare that to the last few years! The banks run riot nowadays, all facilitated  by the government of the day. This madness has to stop. Maybe the virus will be the wake-up?

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17 hours ago, msi said:

There's a whole education that the elites don't want you to have, otherwise they can't control you.

The ability to think objectively, weigh up options, test the NULL hypothesis, financial literacy.  It's no surprise that almost every MP studied PPE, but no form of Polities, Philosophy, or Economic understanding is taught in the state sector.

I had a traditional home education alongside my state education. Hated every min of in being stuck indoors whilst my mates went out, however it paid off in spades.

40 out of 650 (6%) studied PPE at Oxford.  Hardly "almost every" even if a it's still quite a few.

And if by "state sector" you mean essentially high schools and not universities it's not really a fair comparison?  No Independent high schools would teach PPE either?

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The shame about NLP is most people want to learn it in order to be able to **** over other people better and harder.  And therefore that's how many of the courses are also structured and sold.  And so the people that learn it, use it and teach it are often awful, which in turn gives it a bad name and makes it appealing only to that same bracket of people.

A wonderfully powerful tool that is woefully misused.

Edited by stop_the_craziness
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8 hours ago, scottbeard said:

40 out of 650 (6%) studied PPE at Oxford.  Hardly "almost every" even if a it's still quite a few.

And if by "state sector" you mean essentially high schools and not universities it's not really a fair comparison?  No Independent high schools would teach PPE either?

Thank you for your clarification on numbers.  It still stands that PPE is a pervasive degree with more PPE graduates in the Commons than old Etonians.  All this from a single course and not the entire University.

The result as a cross bench class of MPs that I despise. MPs such as David Cameron, William Hague, Theresa May, Jeremy Hunt, Ed Davey, Danny Alexander. Matthew Hancock, Ed Miliband, David Miliband, Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Angela Eagle, Maria Eagle, Rachel Reeves and Stuart Wood.

I know my local Independent and Grammar school have 'Critical thinking' or 'Philosophy' classes, so the transition to PPE would be a smaller jump for those.  There are no feeder subjects that build up the same ability within the State sector. The closest being 'General Studies', but that fell out of favour long ago.

My point is that Objective and Critical thinking are not ingrained into the mass (state) education sector whilst it appears to be in the elites. This isn't by accident.

 

 

Edited by msi
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You're exaggerating slightly. 

Yes there are a lot of people on a knife edge but there are also a lot of people still just cracking on with things, albeit from the comfort of their own homes. 

I've taken zero realised financial hit in all this. Still working full time, wife also on full pay. If anything we're slightly better off ad we're saving on fuel, elements of discretionary spending and we're not paying for our cleaner anymore. 

"Dog bites man" is not news though. 

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  • 415 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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