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Spain rolling out Universal Basic Income


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Discussed UBI on here a few times, appears to be seriously being applied in Spain, though there are no numbers yet. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-05/spanish-government-aims-to-roll-out-basic-income-soon

The Spanish government is working to roll out a universal basic income as soon as possible, as part of a battery of actions aimed at countering the impact of the coronavirus pandemic, according to Economy Minister Nadia Calvino.

.... But the government’s broader ambition is that basic income becomes an instrument “that stays forever, that becomes a structural instrument, a permanent instrument,” she said.(the deputy prime minister) 

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These UBI announcements are always fake because they're never universal:

Quote

Social Security Minister Jose Luis Escriva is coordinating the project and plans to put some sort of basic income “in place as soon as possible,” with the main focus on assisting families, Calvino, who also serves as deputy prime minister, said in an interview Sunday night with Spanish broadcaster La Sexta.

The whole point of the U in UBI is that it's not focused on anybody.

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10 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

These UBI announcements are always fake because they're never universal:

The whole point of the U in UBI is that it's not focused on anybody.

As Monty Python said, "I'm Universal, and so is my wife."

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21 minutes ago, nome said:

Got to look after the feckless breeders, they're our future.

You mean anyone other than royalty or the landed gentry, or perhaps the offspring of City money slickers?    Im getting the impression that everyone believes that if someone comes from the next house size down, or the next tax bracket down they are waste of human space to which we attribute every possible negative connotation.   Some decades ago, the lowest paid working class, when we had lots of full time working class jobs, ie the majority of jobs, could pay the rent without government  assistance or conversely save up and buy a house like my parents did on min wage jobs. Also back then we didnt have an underclass of 'feckless breeders'  Not a chicken and egg situation either, we know what came first,  our working class jobs were hived off to the likes of the Chinese in order to feed the CEO's bonus scheme. And no, the unions were not to blame.

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How would UBI really work though long term,

If everyone in the UK is given £1000 a month basic, its actually a really scary thought.

House prices would be pushed through the roof, my household income monthly would go to about £6k... I'd pay my mortgage off in about 2 years.

Then goods, services and food prices would go up dramatically, people wouldn't be better off, but rather those with more people in the household would get richer, it would cause a disadvantage to workers over people who've had 4 kids, who are all still at home.

Those who work, would not see the benefit unless its dramatically high than those with several people in the household, it's a nice dream but I doubt spain would roll it out...

So people will start to mass bread, causing an even bigger problem...

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7 minutes ago, Speed1987 said:

How would UBI really work though long term,

If everyone in the UK is given £1000 a month basic, its actually a really scary thought.

House prices would be pushed through the roof, my household income monthly would go to about £6k... I'd pay my mortgage off in about 2 years.

Then goods, services and food prices would go up dramatically, people wouldn't be better off, but rather those with more people in the household would get richer, it would cause a disadvantage to workers over people who've had 4 kids, who are all still at home.

Those who work, would not see the benefit unless its dramatically high than those with several people in the household, it's a nice dream but I doubt spain would roll it out...

So people will start to mass bread, causing an even bigger problem...

They wouldn`t pay out 1k a month though, more like 2 or 3 hundred tops IMO, it would be a token gesture designed to be immediately spent into the economy, not anything life changing. Not going to happen in the UK any time soon though?

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17 minutes ago, adamLancs said:

Precursor to a haircut on savings, pretty obvious procession of events, nobody believes it yet though.

What are you saying, that they will take savings and give a smaller portion back as UC? I think at the moment haircuts on savings would be the last thing they want to be doing if they want their debt money system to survive, taking savings, and telegraphing that people don`t own their own money just sends out the message that "ownership" is dead, cue riots and smash and grab on shops etc. It would be haircuts on the middle range wealthy maybe, but that just causes more problems for investment productivity etc.?

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6 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said:

What are you saying, that they will take savings and give a smaller portion back as UC? I think at the moment haircuts on savings would be the last thing they want to be doing if they want their debt money system to survive, taking savings, and telegraphing that people don`t own their own money just sends out the message that "ownership" is dead, cue riots and smash and grab on shops etc. It would be haircuts on the middle range wealthy maybe, but that just causes more problems for investment productivity etc.?

Don't know. Just hear rumours. But apparently to speak of rumours is fear-mongering.

The money was expected to be there ( productivity ) and now it's not. It doesn't seem like anybody has considered the whole thing is a pyramid scheme in the first place. Some of us older folk know how they topple.

Edited by adamLancs
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55 minutes ago, Speed1987 said:

How would UBI really work though long term,

If everyone in the UK is given £1000 a month basic, its actually a really scary thought.

House prices would be pushed through the roof, my household income monthly would go to about £6k... I'd pay my mortgage off in about 2 years.

You would have to claw it back in higher tax rates  - take someone on say 40k, give them a grand a month, now increase the tax rates until that person is paying a grand a month more in tax. "whats the point in that" you say ? well the idea is to

1) Wipe out benefit fraud at a stroke (you cant make a fraudulent claim if everyone gets it).

2) Remove the near vertical effective marginal tax rate that happens when your are on benefits but try to do some work, under a well structure UBI it always pays to do some more work to top up your income no matter where you are on the scale. Right now you either have to be a full time rat racer or balls deep in gaming the benefits.

3) Removes some power from the state, yes that sounds like a paradox but since getting UBI is a default entitlement the state exercises a lot less power over a lot of people daily lives.

4) Removes the need for an entire tier of civil service and state infrastructure needed to asses and police benefit entitlement.

 

Edited by goldbug9999
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46 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said:

On the subject of hoarding, my local shop today has some toilet paper, quite a reasonable amount actually, but no eggs, three whole levels of shelf for eggs totally cleared, is there an egg shortage or are the public total morons?

Maybe everyone has decided they love omelettes?

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1 hour ago, dances with sheeple said:

On the subject of hoarding, my local shop today has some toilet paper, quite a reasonable amount actually, but no eggs, three whole levels of shelf for eggs totally cleared, is there an egg shortage or are the public total morons?

Same number of chickens laying the same number of eggs so I’m going with morons. They are probably throwing them in a bin 2 weeks later. This won’t stop until they hit their credit limit.

Edited by LetsBuild
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29 minutes ago, Ghostly said:

People always say that here but I don’t really understand it.

 

Example,

Borrowing rates are currently, 4.5 times your earnings...

So if a couple are earning minimum wage, say £2k a month.

12x4.5x2=108k

However if they have 2k universal income on top of that, then borrowing power increases.

24x4.5x2=216k.

So as there are now buyers with more money, they will bid the property up higher, as everyone has that extra money available to them.

This will happen to everything, 6 apples wouldn't be £1 more like £2-3, a new car would be x2-3 the price, it is now. Money is just relative... the people who would do best in this situation are those holding alot of debt, as they would be able to pay it down quickly, if they didn't keep borrowing even more...

The poor would have the same problem as before, they would have cash available but still not be able to afford much more than they can now... it's all relative.

However people with big debts, would do great, as they would be able to pay off their mortgages faster (as debt wouldn't change), while now charging even more to buyers. It would actually make homeowners and landlords even richer... it would put all that extra money into their pockets by reliving their debts essentially.

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1 hour ago, goldbug9999 said:

You would have to claw it back in higher tax rates  - take someone on say 40k, give them a grand a month, now increase the tax rates until that person is paying a grand a month more in tax. "whats the point in that" you say ? well the idea is to

1) Wipe out benefit fraud at a stroke (you cant make a fraudulent claim if everyone gets it).

2) Remove the near vertical effective marginal tax rate that happens when your are on benefits but try to do some work, under a well structure UBI it always pays to do some more work to top up your income no matter where you are on the scale. Right now you either have to be a full time rat racer or balls deep in gaming the benefits.

3) Removes some power from the state, yes that sounds like a paradox but since getting UBI is a default entitlement the state exercises a lot less power over a lot of people daily lives.

4) Removes the need for an entire tier of civil service and state infrastructure needed to asses and police benefit entitlement.

 

1. I agree it would wipe out benefit fraud, however plenty of top business men commit fraud and tax avoidance regularly, so I dont blame people for defrauding benefits. If they can't defraud, then they essentially have now lost that money... 

2. I agree with removing, not just marginal tax but higher rate tax also, otherwise it wouldn't pay to work harder anymore and it barely does now. Rather, having a basic tax on every pound earnt over the UBI.

3. People will still need support, no matter how much money you give them.... people who are rich still have addiction problems, social problems, these won't go away and the state still will need to step in. However I guess some relief would be gained.

4. Seen as now everyone is at a basic level, wouldn't that put people with disabilities at a huge disadvantage? They may not have the means to work and therefore wouldn't have the advantages I do. Essentially they would be rendered poor... 1k seems great now, but when the market adjusts, it will be like giving them only £500 a month, in today's money.

 

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2 hours ago, Speed1987 said:

How would UBI really work though long term,

If everyone in the UK is given £1000 a month basic, its actually a really scary thought.

House prices would be pushed through the roof, my household income monthly would go to about £6k... I'd pay my mortgage off in about 2 years.

Then goods, services and food prices would go up dramatically, people wouldn't be better off, but rather those with more people in the household would get richer, it would cause a disadvantage to workers over people who've had 4 kids, who are all still at home.

Those who work, would not see the benefit unless its dramatically high than those with several people in the household, it's a nice dream but I doubt spain would roll it out...

So people will start to mass bread, causing an even bigger problem...

If your household income is that high, relatively, then you'd be paying higher tax. They are trialling UBI in Scotland at the moment, that proposal has no tax free allowance and starts paying tax on the first penny you earn. On the way up from earning £0 to £30k you are still a little better off, but from £30k or so upwards the tax cancels out the UBI and you are no better off if not worse off than you are today. 

There is another similar proposal called negative income tax. In that system you get tax is zero at, say, £30k. Up to £30k tax is negative, you get paid a 'top up' to your wages, and over £30k you get taxed more heavily than we do, only those earning over £30k would be net taxpayers, which is largely where we are in this country anyway. 

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4 minutes ago, Speed1987 said:

4 Seen as now everyone is at a basic level, wouldn't that put people with disabilities at a huge disadvantage? They may not have the means to work and therefore wouldn't have the advantages I do. Essentially they would be rendered poor... 1k seems great now, but when the market adjusts, it will be like giving them only £500 a month, in today's money.

 

Most proposals still have some benefits. For example the proposed Scottish model replaces Universal Credit/Job seekers allowance with UBI, but still intends to pay something equivalent to the current disability and housing benefits 

I would imagine most of us here would hope that the housing element would not be paid separately to cause downward pressure on House prices. 

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3 minutes ago, regprentice said:

Most proposals still have some benefits. For example the proposed Scottish model replaces Universal Credit/Job seekers allowance with UBI, but still intends to pay something equivalent to the current disability and housing benefits 

I would imagine most of us here would hope that the housing element would not be paid separately to cause downward pressure on House prices. 

I can't see it helping anyone but current holders of debt, the more debt you hold the better...

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Give everyone a grand a month forever. 

It will be the only way shortly, unless this useless "lockdown" is kicked into touch very, very soon.

 

The useless Tories need to hold their hands up and admit they have fooked up, otherwise they will need to introduce a citizens income for all and scrap the fooking useless benefits system, which is about as much use as the chocolate teapot.

Everyone knows how bad the "benefits" systems is now and can see it in full 3D.

Edited by Social Justice League
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4 hours ago, Ghostly said:

People always say that here but I don’t really understand it.

Because wealth is based on what you produce not just how many bits of paper you print and give out to people.

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They could give UBI but not in the form of cash it would have to be a tracked register that uses a type of gift token structure that could only be used for purchases of goods and no mortgages or debt could use the ubi as leverage to borrow more. 

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