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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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34 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Total number of births in the UK 1999-2019 15.7 million, deaths 12.4 million, net natural population growth 3.3 million.

Immigration numbers I've found (from the ONS) end in 2018, so I'm going 1998-2018 for those, so not 100% comparable. They are also numbers in the 100s, so I assume thousands. That has 11.6 immigrants, 7.1 emigrants, net 4.5 million increase from immigration. Obviously these are the quoted figures and people will quibble about under or over estimates.

Of course some of the deaths will be from immigrants, and I've no idea what proportion but I'd be surprised if it was a high one (since most immigrants in the last 20 years will have been young).

Some of those births would be because of immigration. 

(I am not saying that this a bad thing but surely if an immigrant comes here and has a child that is population growth due to immigration not natural population growth).

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5 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Some of those births would be because of immigration. 

(I am not saying that this a bad thing but surely if an immigrant comes here and has a child that is population growth due to immigration not natural population growth).

Sure, although that also raises the question about where do you draw the line on that - how many generations need to be here before you don't count that? And what if an immigrant has children with a native, what do you count that as?

There are always uncertainties and extra details to consider in anything, the question is whether it's worth pursuing them or not - do they significantly shift the answer to a very different answer?

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18 minutes ago, msi said:

At last someone who can argue with empirical data and not fatuous statements. Thank you.

Whilst you can argue for net immigration (one leaving worker is equally replaced by an arriving worker in terms of needs for housing, benefits, healthcare etc) can you really argue the net population growth?  Does Great Aunt Gertrudes passing and her bungalow pay for her Grandchild's Healthcare, Education, additional housing?

It depends what you're arguing for; I'm mostly concerned with just the numbers rather than economic pros and cons. However people being born and people dying clearly impacts things like housing stock, dead people not needing homes. And everyone needs paying for in their childhood and old age somehow, somewhere.

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10 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Sure, although that also raises the question about where do you draw the line on that - how many generations need to be here before you don't count that? And what if an immigrant has children with a native, what do you count that as?

There are always uncertainties and extra details to consider in anything, the question is whether it's worth pursuing them or not - do they significantly shift the answer to a very different answer?

Good questions I am not sure of the answers.

I still think population growth via immigration is something that should be looked at when discussing population growth.

It does not mean that immigration is bad but when we should be aware of the costs.  I don't think it is honest to avoid them. 

 

Edited by iamnumerate
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1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

Total number of births in the UK 1999-2019 15.7 million, deaths 12.4 million, net natural population growth 3.3 million.

Immigration numbers I've found (from the ONS) end in 2018, so I'm going 1998-2018 for those, so not 100% comparable. They are also numbers in the 100s, so I assume thousands. That has 11.6 immigrants, 7.1 emigrants, net 4.5 million increase from immigration. Obviously these are the quoted figures and people will quibble about under or over estimates.

Of course some of the deaths will be from immigrants, and I've no idea what proportion but I'd be surprised if it was a high one (since most immigrants in the last 20 years will have been young).

Some of those births will have migrated, there is still a high level of migration by people born in the U.K.  to eg Oz and Nz

but the whole point of this thread is that the ONS figures are wrong, hugely so as they have now admitted. The settlement figures is the first actual census of how many people with EU citizenship live in the U.K. 

Edited by debtlessmanc
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12 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Some of those births will have migrated, there is still a high level of migration by people born in the U.K.  to eg Oz and Nz

but the whole point of this thread is that the ONS figures are wrong, hugely so as they have now admitted. The settlement figures is the first actual census of how many people with EU citizenship live in the U.K. 

The point is that even those wrong figures point towards net immigration overall adding more to the population than births and deaths (I wasn't looking at just EU figures either - I'm not particularly interested about where people come from).

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2 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Some of those births would be because of immigration. 

(I am not saying that this a bad thing but surely if an immigrant comes here and has a child that is population growth due to immigration not natural population growth).

How would you count it, an older British guy with a much younger Colombian 

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2 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Sure, although that also raises the question about where do you draw the line on that - how many generations need to be here before you don't count that? And what if an immigrant has children with a native, what do you count that as?

There are always uncertainties and extra details to consider in anything, the question is whether it's worth pursuing them or not - do they significantly shift the answer to a very different answer?

If you use the house of Windsor as a rule of thumb.

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