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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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46 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

Looks like the govt and media have conspired for decades to gaslight UK citizens. ‘No, don’t believe your own eyes and experiences, you are mistaken, and if you keeping saying it you’re lying.’ 

~15 years.

Someone, somewhere said '3m, mainly working' and thats what Pols and media have repeated without checking.

 

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On 27/06/2021 at 07:44, spyguy said:

So ..... 18 months after your reply stating that I'm crazeeee, followed by Brits are mental for voting Brexit.

~5.7m applied.

Fantastic riposte !  Let's see if you get some kind of apology or at least acknowledgement from @slawek that s/he was wrong.

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5 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Apparently there are significant numbers of EU citizens living in the U.K. who do not even know Brexit has occurred, as though they have been here 30 years they still cannot read or speak a European language...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/27/uks-east-timorese-population-faces-loss-of-rights-after-brexit

this is just one group there must be many others. The number known to be  living here is just going to keep on rising for years.

I'm confused.

Since when was East Timor in the EU?

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3 hours ago, spyguy said:

~15 years.

Someone, somewhere said '3m, mainly working' and thats what Pols and media have repeated without checking.

 

It's still only 2.5M with settled status (those who can claim benefits).

Another 2.7M can be here to work, but they can't access benefits etc (pre-settled status, or PSS).

So, to me, it looks like everyone has been wrong!

Definitely way more EU nationals here, but the majority (2.7M) must be working jobs that pay well enough for them not to have to access our benefit system.

Does that make those obsessed with immigration happy or sad? It's good news, surely (unless someone was an extremely commited xenophobe I guess)? 

Or have we now moved onto "kick em all out, even if they are doctors, dentists, and what not"?

Edited by byron78
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17 minutes ago, byron78 said:

I'm confused.

Since when was East Timor in the EU?

Same way that Brazli is in the EU - 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/city-of-london-s-longest-ever-strike-comes-ends-after-bosses-agree-to-pay-cleaners-london-living-wage-a3312691.html

Old Portuguese and Spanish colonies.

Portuguese and Spanish companies after work in old colonies - Angolan oil, Spanish banks customer in SA.

Both countries offer loads of work permits to these nationals. 10s of 1000s pie into Spain + Portugal.

Euro crisis happens and they all pile into the UK.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, spyguy said:

Same way that Brazli is in the EU - 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/city-of-london-s-longest-ever-strike-comes-ends-after-bosses-agree-to-pay-cleaners-london-living-wage-a3312691.html

Old Portuguese and Spanish colonies.

Portuguese and Spanish companies after work in old colonies - Angolan oil, Spanish banks customer in SA.

Both countries offer loads of work permits to these nationals. 10s of 1000s pie into Spain + Portugal.

Euro crisis happens and they all pile into the UK.

 

 

 

 

The 2.5M low paid migrant workers claiming benefits are all from Brazil and East Timor?

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12 minutes ago, byron78 said:

It's still only 2.5M with settled status (those who can claim benefits).

Another 2.7M can be here to work, but they can't access benefits etc (pre-settled status, or PSS).

So, to me, it looks like everyone has been wrong!

Definitely way more EU nationals here, but the majority (2.7M) must be working jobs that pay well enough for them not to have to access our benefit system.

Does that make those obsessed with immigration happy or sad? It's good news, surely (unless someone was an extremely commited xenophobe I guess)? 

Or have we now moved onto "kick em all out, even if they are doctors, dentists, and what not"?

Theres not a single EUer - EE, Spanish, Portuguese, - at Mrs Spys school who working FT well paid jobs.

They are all on the max pupil premium.

Remove all access to benefits and free public services. See how many of the ~7m-9m were actually supporting themselves.

Before ~2004 it was the only notable EU families in the UK were French bankers in London. Sent their kids to French school.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, spyguy said:

Theres not a single EUer - EE, Spanish, Portuguese, - at Mrs Spys school who working FT well paid jobs.

They are all on the max pupil premium.

Remove all access to benefits and free public services. See how many of the ~7m-9m were actually supporting themselves.

Before ~2004 it was the only notable EU families in the UK were French bankers in London. Sent their kids to French school.

 

 

 

We have the numbers though?

Only 2.5M EU citizens claimed settled status.

We literally now know who the others (the other 2.7M and the rest who haven't claimed). 

I'm not sure where your 7-9M figure is from, but if you remove the Settled Status claimants from whatever starting figure you wish to use, it'll give you the number of those who are actually supporting themselves. 

It's the majority, whichever way you look at it.

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16 minutes ago, byron78 said:

It's still only 2.5M with settled status (those who can claim benefits).

Another 2.7M can be here to work, but they can't access benefits etc (pre-settled status, or PSS).

So, to me, it looks like everyone has been wrong!

Definitely way more EU nationals here, but the majority (2.7M) must be working jobs that pay well enough for them not to have to access our benefit system.

Does that make those obsessed with immigration happy or sad? It's good news, surely (unless someone was an extremely commited xenophobe I guess)? 

Or have we now moved onto "kick em all out, even if they are doctors, dentists, and what not"?

Lots of trying to shift goalposts, setting up strawmen, and trying to twist opinions into the usual frothing at the mouth about racists implications in that post.

Firstly, "Only" 2.5M? 2.5M is a lot of people, all requiring accommodation and services.

Why is it good news unless someone's an extremely committed xenophobe? On it's own it's a neutral fact, neither good nor bad.

Who's said "kick em all out, even if they are doctors, dentists, and what not"? But if we need immigration for those sorts of jobs we're in a right mess, that's a problem we need to be dealing with. You'll never get it exactly right and every country will over or undershoot a little even if they're making a good try, so a bit of balanced immigration and emigration there to level that's great, but "piling in more and more people's good" is preposterous, and using it to avoid the expense of doing our own training is short-sighted.

 

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Just now, Riedquat said:

Lots of trying to shift goalposts, setting up strawmen, and trying to twist opinions into the usual frothing at the mouth about racists implications in that post.

Firstly, "Only" 2.5M? 2.5M is a lot of people, all requiring accommodation and services.

Why is it good news unless someone's an extremely committed xenophobe? On it's own it's a neutral fact, neither good nor bad.

Who's said "kick em all out, even if they are doctors, dentists, and what not"? But if we need immigration for those sorts of jobs we're in a right mess, that's a problem we need to be dealing with. You'll never get it exactly right and every country will over or undershoot a little even if they're making a good try, so a bit of balanced immigration and emigration there to level that's great, but "piling in more and more people's good" is preposterous, and using it to avoid the expense of doing our own training is short-sighted.

 

NHS has ALWAYS needed immigration, as far back as I can remember.

But yes, I'd prefer to train our own. That's "leftie" though. Higher tax, more spending on education (and improved free access), and the unionisiation of Brits once in those jobs. Kind of what we had before Thatcher I suppose.

It's definitely a mess of our own making (I remember warning what might happen when we closed doctor and dental training schools in the 80s and early 90s).

What worries me most is that, despite Brexit, a pandemic, and a national dentist shortage, NOTHING has been done to build the infrastructure needed to train our own!

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2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Lots of trying to shift goalposts, setting up strawmen, and trying to twist opinions into the usual frothing at the mouth about racists implications in that post.

Firstly, "Only" 2.5M? 2.5M is a lot of people, all requiring accommodation and services.

Why is it good news unless someone's an extremely committed xenophobe? On it's own it's a neutral fact, neither good nor bad.

Who's said "kick em all out, even if they are doctors, dentists, and what not"? But if we need immigration for those sorts of jobs we're in a right mess, that's a problem we need to be dealing with. You'll never get it exactly right and every country will over or undershoot a little even if they're making a good try, so a bit of balanced immigration and emigration there to level that's great, but "piling in more and more people's good" is preposterous, and using it to avoid the expense of doing our own training is short-sighted.

 

There was about 2.5m EUers living in the UK pre 2004/EE ascension/Euro crisis.

In the main, these were either young single and working. or rich families- French bankers.

UK bennies back before TCs were pretty brassic.

What changes was TC, making bennies and kids lucrative. And EE ascension, followed by the Euro crisis.

Theres never been more than ~1m UKers living in all of Europe. Mainly France and Spain. Mainly retired, living off their own money.

The numbers of EUers in the UK and their cost of hosting is is going to become a hot political potato for the UK and EU.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, byron78 said:

NHS has ALWAYS needed immigration, as far back as I can remember.

But yes, I'd prefer to train our own. That's "leftie" though. Higher tax, more spending on education (and improved free access), and the unionisiation of Brits once in those jobs. Kind of what we had before Thatcher I suppose.

It's definitely a mess of our own making (I remember warning what might happen when we closed doctor and dental training schools in the 80s and early 90s).

What worries me most is that, despite Brexit, a pandemic, and a national dentist shortage, NOTHING has been done to build the infrastructure needed to train our own!

No its not.

Its just been convenient for a slow, hide bound inefficient org to fish in migration, to make up for its own lack of planning.

 

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5 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No its not.

Its just been convenient for a slow, hide bound inefficient org to fish in migration, to make up for its own lack of planning.

 

In your world (La La land?) it's not.

Which is why it won't be fixed (because I'm presuming you're a fan of the tripe we've had since 2010)? I'm sure you're one of those that thinks this all started in 1997, oblivious (willfully?) to the changes to UK housing in 1980, 88, and 96 that - in fact - actually created this monster.

Edited by byron78
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49 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

HPCers, particularly Remoaner HPCers, are unable to apologise for or acknowledge any flaw in their logic no matter when presented with evidence.

I voted remain and am quite open about learning more since it happened. But I’m anti population growth, which is generally frowned upon in remain circles. 

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4 minutes ago, byron78 said:

NHS has ALWAYS needed immigration, as far back as I can remember.

But yes, I'd prefer to train our own. That's "leftie" though. Higher tax, more spending on education (and improved free access), and the unionisiation of Brits once in those jobs. Kind of what we had before Thatcher I suppose.

It's definitely a mess of our own making (I remember warning what might happen when we closed doctor and dental training schools in the 80s and early 90s).

What worries me most is that, despite Brexit, a pandemic, and a national dentist shortage, NOTHING has been done to build the infrastructure needed to train our own!

And to be fair those are good reasons why it can't be reduced to zero overnight - things can't change suddenly. But anything other than making that the long-term goal is just kicking the can down the road. The underlying issues that have made immigration look like an appealing solution need sorting first, although the problem is that the effort won't be made to do so whilst there's that cheaper-looking option available.

My view has always been that net positive immigration is a bad thing, for all its short term economic appeal. Net zero, which most certainly isn't the same as absolutely zero, can be a very good thing.

My ideal world would have absolute freedom of movement and there'd be no particular overall pressure to move - then you'd get the localised short-term time-varying shifts sorting themselves out, opportunities for everyone anywhere if they wanted them, and enough mixing to really spice things up without fundamentally changing the social landscape. But the right environment needs to exist before trying that is a disaster (it pretty much existed in the EU before expansion, although I'm sure some former Mediterranean villages that are now expat nightlife spots might disagree).

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illegal immigrants to be processed in africa, maybe include those who miss the 30th june deadline might put them off coming.  Still Chinese in hong kong doing their best to rid it off all those youngsters who still want their voice heard will be interesting to see the final tally in 5 yrs time.

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2 hours ago, byron78 said:

NHS has ALWAYS needed immigration, as far back as I can remember.

But yes, I'd prefer to train our own. That's "leftie" though. Higher tax, more spending on education (and improved free access), and the unionisiation of Brits once in those jobs. Kind of what we had before Thatcher I suppose.

It's definitely a mess of our own making (I remember warning what might happen when we closed doctor and dental training schools in the 80s and early 90s).

What worries me most is that, despite Brexit, a pandemic, and a national dentist shortage, NOTHING has been done to build the infrastructure needed to train our own!

We could have chosen to train our own but we chose not to by capping the training.....we did not want to train the NHS staff numbers needed, pay wages, pensions, sickpay, holidays etc staff is the most expensive fixed cost when planning to offer for sale? not enough newly trained to cover those that have left and retired and patient needs.....prefering to pay agency expensive upfront fees/wages, keep them off the books.

How come a nurse requires a degree and a police officer doesn't......earns as they learn, like the nurses used to.;)

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On 29/06/2021 at 13:42, PeanutButter said:

I voted remain and am quite open about learning more since it happened. But I’m anti population growth, which is generally frowned upon in remain circles. 

Not by me. We definitely need to get human population growth on planet earth under control. I'd be happier if it started shrinking.

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Final tally is over 6M

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/uk-receives-6-million-applications-092122850.html

also the guardian article estimates that upto 500k have missed the deadline.

Then there are those who arrived in the last 20 years who have acquired citizenship. over 10% of the UK's population have arrived via FoM. This clearly has impacted house price inflation and anyone who denies it is crazy.

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2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Final tally is over 6M

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/uk-receives-6-million-applications-092122850.html

also the guardian article estimates that upto 500k have missed the deadline.

Then there are those who arrived in the last 20 years who have acquired citizenship. over 10% of the UK's population have arrived via FoM. This clearly has impacted house price inflation and anyone who denies it is crazy.

How much of the UK population arrived via the Uterus over the last 20 years?

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7 minutes ago, msi said:

How much of the UK population arrived via the Uterus over the last 20 years?

Total number of births in the UK 1999-2019 15.7 million, deaths 12.4 million, net natural population growth 3.3 million.

Immigration numbers I've found (from the ONS) end in 2018, so I'm going 1998-2018 for those, so not 100% comparable. They are also numbers in the 100s, so I assume thousands. That has 11.6 immigrants, 7.1 emigrants, net 4.5 million increase from immigration. Obviously these are the quoted figures and people will quibble about under or over estimates.

Of course some of the deaths will be from immigrants, and I've no idea what proportion but I'd be surprised if it was a high one (since most immigrants in the last 20 years will have been young).

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24 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Total number of births in the UK 1999-2019 15.7 million, deaths 12.4 million, net natural population growth 3.3 million.

Immigration numbers I've found (from the ONS) end in 2018, so I'm going 1998-2018 for those, so not 100% comparable. They are also numbers in the 100s, so I assume thousands. That has 11.6 immigrants, 7.1 emigrants, net 4.5 million increase from immigration. Obviously these are the quoted figures and people will quibble about under or over estimates.

Of course some of the deaths will be from immigrants, and I've no idea what proportion but I'd be surprised if it was a high one (since most immigrants in the last 20 years will have been young).

At last someone who can argue with empirical data and not fatuous statements. Thank you.

Whilst you can argue for net immigration (one leaving worker is equally replaced by an arriving worker in terms of needs for housing, benefits, healthcare etc) can you really argue the net population growth?  Does Great Aunt Gertrudes passing and her bungalow pay for her Grandchild's Healthcare, Education, additional housing?

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