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6 hours ago, slawek said:

'Doors will close for Brits in EU': Why the UK's post-Brexit immigration plan has sparked alarm

British in Europe's Fiona Godfrey added: "This will have repercussions for UK nationals already living in the EU. We are still waiting for some countries to decide how they will register  us under the Withdrawal Agreement and this probably won’t help persuade them to choose the declaratory option rather than the re-registration option. 

"And, of course, it’s not going to help Brits who want or need to leave their host country to find work elsewhere in the EU if the member states reciprocate, which we expect them to do. 
 
"All in all, it’s more British exceptionalism, insularity and delusion. It would be embarrassing were it not for the fact that so many UK  lives and livelihoods in the EU, and EU lives and livelihoods in the UK are dependent on the UK government acting in good faith and treating EU nationals living there as assets to the country rather than units of “cheap labour.” The hostile environment has to stop."

https://www.thelocal.com/20200219/this-will-mean-nothing-good-for-brits-in-europe-uks-post-brexit-immigration-system-sparks-alarm

Heres the chart used.

Oh its scary!!!! ... Except its not.

6569.jpeg

Ignore ireland, the 'brits' are going to be off Irish origin.

Thats ~ 700k Brits living iin those countries.

According to the current EU settlement data, tnhe number of those countries citizens living in UK are:

France: Applied 172K.

Germany: 85K applied,

Italy: 322K applied.

These numbers, at the mo, pretty much net to 0.

Now start moving beyond the top 3. At the moment, on the EU settlement numbers the ratio of EUers in UK to UKers in EU is about 5:1.

Again, when you start estimating the numbers - and as I said earlier, most EErs have not applied or settlement, the ration is going to be 10+:1.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Heres the chart used.

Oh its scary!!!! ... Except its not.

6569.jpeg

Ignore ireland, the 'brits' are going to be off Irish origin.

Thats ~ 700k Brits living iin those countries.

According to the current EU settlement data, tnhe number of those countries citizens living in UK are:

France: Applied 172K.

Germany: 85K applied,

Italy: 322K applied.

These numbers, at the mo, pretty much net to 0.

Now start moving beyond the top 3. At the moment, on the EU settlement numbers the ratio of EUers in UK to UKers in EU is about 5:1.

Again, when you start estimating the numbers - and as I said earlier, most EErs have not applied or settlement, the ration is going to be 10+:1.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ignore iteland as it is covered by a 100 year old freedom of movement treaty which both countries have agree will be honoured. The other stat you are not giving are that there ar 4M brits elsewhere in the world. In fact more brits in Australia than the whole EU by some margin.. 

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9 hours ago, zugzwang said:

I'm not responsible the terminal failure of the UK economy. That's on your bankster-frotting Tory chums: Doris, Smoggy, Cummings et al. Forty years of privatisation, deregulation and globalisation in pursuit of a mathematised ideology masquerading as science.

:rolleyes:

Oh yes.

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9 hours ago, zugzwang said:

I'm not responsible the terminal failure of the UK economy. That's on your bankster-frotting Tory chums: Doris, Smoggy, Cummings et al. Forty years of privatisation, deregulation and globalisation in pursuit of a mathematised ideology masquerading as science.

:rolleyes:

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Edited by Bugger BTL
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9 hours ago, zugzwang said:

I'm not responsible the terminal failure of the UK economy. That's on your bankster-frotting Tory chums: Doris, Smoggy, Cummings et al. Forty years of privatisation, deregulation and globalisation in pursuit of a mathematised ideology masquerading as science.

:rolleyes:

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Edited by Bugger BTL
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10 hours ago, slawek said:

You shouldn't take this tweet so literally. Examples you gave are just your personal experience, not representative of the real situation. For an example you claim that there are no Romanian nurses it is completely wrong, see the table below.

People from the EU works in all kind of jobs, you can't make any claims based on their nationalities. My accountant is Polish, a woman running nursery was Polish, my GP is German. People working in the City (traders, sales, quants, IT) are from all over the EU, German, Ireland, French, Italy, Poland,  Spain, Netherlands, Austria.

Your claim that there is 5-10mln EUs in the UK is simply crazy.   

image.png.43d04eae21e5cdbf82c55646ecf79a10.png

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7783/CBP-7783.pdf

He is probably right about there being no German farmers.

All the people you mentioned would be allowed to come here under the new rules so no problem.

Personally I think we should not pay people or subsidize them to come here - I really don't think that makes sense.

 

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2 hours ago, spyguy said:

Heres the chart used.

Oh its scary!!!! ... Except its not.

6569.jpeg

Ignore ireland, the 'brits' are going to be off Irish origin.

Thats ~ 700k Brits living iin those countries.

According to the current EU settlement data, tnhe number of those countries citizens living in UK are:

France: Applied 172K.

Germany: 85K applied,

Italy: 322K applied.

These numbers, at the mo, pretty much net to 0.

Now start moving beyond the top 3. At the moment, on the EU settlement numbers the ratio of EUers in UK to UKers in EU is about 5:1.

Again, when you start estimating the numbers - and as I said earlier, most EErs have not applied or settlement, the ration is going to be 10+:1.

 

 

I would suggest that the figures are well under estimated......very many more British expats live in Europe, the choice of 30 countries, very many more might only live a few months at a time.....lots will be working over there for periods of time via their employers......lots of musicians and artists do tours all over Europe.....the British people have lost 30 countries, the Europeans have only lost one.....us.?

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10 minutes ago, winkie said:

I would suggest that the figures are well under estimated......very many more British expats live in Europe, the choice of 30 countries, very many more might only live a few months at a time.....lots will be working over there for periods of time via their employers......lots of musicians and artists do tours all over Europe.....the British people have lost 30 countries, the Europeans have only lost one.....us.?

Lots of american and south american musicians do tours all over europe, how ever do they manage it?

what is lost in all this is any critical examination of why there is such a discrepency between EU migration to the UK and out of it to the EU. The reason i keep hearing from EU colleagues is just good old fashioned corruption in southern states were public sector jobs are given out to locals regardless of qualifications, this leads to brain drain, much of it ends up in the UK as we are more open minded about who to appoint. The other is simply the flexible jobs market, another factor is of course the English language. The question is when will the EU do anything about any of these things? i cannot it see it ever doing so, it clearly knows there is a problem

https://euobserver.com/institutional/136775

 

in the face of this the old mantra "it will stop when things have even out" looks wildly optimisitic. The aspirations of the young people of the EU cannot be met by them all moving to one small part of it.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Lots of american and south american musicians do tours all over europe, how ever do they manage it?

what is lost in all this is any critical examination of why there is such a discrepency between EU migration to the UK and out of it to the EU. The reason i keep hearing from EU colleagues is just good old fashioned corruption in southern states were public sector jobs are given out to locals regardless of qualifications, this leads to brain drain, much of it ends up in the UK as we are more open minded about who to appoint. The other is simply the flexible jobs market, another factor is of course the English language. The question is when will the EU do anything about any of these things? i cannot it see it ever doing so, it clearly knows there is a problem

https://euobserver.com/institutional/136775

 

in the face of this the old mantra "it will stop when things have even out" looks wildly optimisitic. The aspirations of the young people of the EU cannot be met by them all moving to one small part of it.

The musician bit got me since very close to home - my Uncle was a jazz musician toured all over the world from the sixties till his passing a few years ago 

One of his boys my cousin ( with a Danish mum admittedly ) was doing the the black armband bit on the 31st Jan - when we discussed he said freedom of movement was why his Dad was successful WTF ?

Its a sort of propaganda that the EU is responsible for any form of success if it involved crossing a border - weird 

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We do not know yet what the deals will be between the EU and UK......it could turn out well for citizens or badly....Europe is our nearest neighbour, our friends and supporters, we have a long history with Europe and its people.......just hope governments do the right thing.?

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46 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Lots of american and south american musicians do tours all over europe, how ever do they manage it?

what is lost in all this is any critical examination of why there is such a discrepency between EU migration to the UK and out of it to the EU. The reason i keep hearing from EU colleagues is just good old fashioned corruption in southern states were public sector jobs are given out to locals regardless of qualifications, this leads to brain drain, much of it ends up in the UK as we are more open minded about who to appoint. The other is simply the flexible jobs market, another factor is of course the English language. The question is when will the EU do anything about any of these things? i cannot it see it ever doing so, it clearly knows there is a problem.

 

in the face of this the old mantra "it will stop when things have even out" looks wildly optimisitic. The aspirations of the young people of the EU cannot be met by them all moving to one small part of it.

It goes without saying that a person should speak good English if they are required to deal with customers, staff, members of the public, especially in the medical profession.....often artists actors and creative people do not earn money, they perform live for usually expenses only.......not all work is well paid, our teachers, police, nurses, carers, prison officers who are skilled personnel do not earn the £25600 pa threshold......what is this message telling our low paid workers??

Edited by winkie
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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

He is probably right about there being no German farmers.

All the people you mentioned would be allowed to come here under the new rules so no problem.

Personally I think we should not pay people or subsidize them to come here - I really don't think that makes sense.

 

We've got a German comedian, why not a farmer.

Those people will probably be allowed but will they want to come to a country where they are treated as a second class residents with limited rights being at whim of some xenophobes?  I doubt they will now on avoid the UK as a plague. 

Using your logic London should not allow in any one from North who doesn't speak a proper English or is low skilled. For me this way of thinking is just morally disgusting. 

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3 hours ago, spyguy said:

Heres the chart used.

Oh its scary!!!! ... Except its not.

6569.jpeg

Ignore ireland, the 'brits' are going to be off Irish origin.

Thats ~ 700k Brits living iin those countries.

According to the current EU settlement data, tnhe number of those countries citizens living in UK are:

France: Applied 172K.

Germany: 85K applied,

Italy: 322K applied.

These numbers, at the mo, pretty much net to 0.

Now start moving beyond the top 3. At the moment, on the EU settlement numbers the ratio of EUers in UK to UKers in EU is about 5:1.

Again, when you start estimating the numbers - and as I said earlier, most EErs have not applied or settlement, the ration is going to be 10+:1.

Not sure what is your point here. Are you suggesting that rights and dreams of those British wanting to live in the EU should be ignored to make some xenophobes/racists/nationalists in the UK happier?

Your estimation of EEs in the UK are as rubbish as you claims about no Romanian nurser or EEs working only in low paid jobs.

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1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

It wasn't just about immigration … not the same thing.

It was primarily about immigration. The rest of the arguments were added on as needed and will disappear very quickly. That's why people are happy to hand trade policy over to the Tories right now. They never really cared.

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2 minutes ago, slawek said:

We've got a German comedian, why not a farmer.

Those people will probably be allowed but will they want to come to a country where they are treated as a second class residents with limited rights being at whim of some xenophobes?  I doubt they will now on avoid the UK as a plague. 

Using your logic London should not allow in any one from North who doesn't speak a proper English or is low skilled. For me this way of thinking is just morally disgusting. 

Surely if there were a German farmer someone could show evidence of him being here?

There is a difference between allowed to do something and being paid to do something.  I would like to live in a nicer area than I do but I don't expect the tax payer to pay me to do so (I probably could afford to if my taxes were not used to subsidize others living there).

Presumably you think that European countries that don't pay British people to go and live there are morally disgusting as well.

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2 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

It was primarily about immigration. The rest of the arguments were added on as needed and will disappear very quickly. That's why people are happy to hand trade policy over to the Tories right now. They never really cared.

UKIP did not start about immigration but because of the Maastricht treaty, it is possible that if we had had large scale immigration but the EU had not replaced the EEC we would still be in the EEC.

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20 hours ago, jonb2 said:

So which is it?

Both - the 2 things are not exclusive

The fact is that there are many lazy people who  do not want to work

The fact is also that AI is destroying jobs particularly low paid unskilled  jobs - I was at a kitchen factory last year which 7 years ago employed 1000 people - with automation it now employs 60.

Just look at your local bank or building society.


I was chatting to the people in my Lloyds who said that 5 years ago they had 25 staff now they have 5. Those jobs they told me  have been lost to automation

Petrol stations used to have a pump attendant now it is self service

Car parks used to have a guy in a box  taking  money now it is by machine

Macdonalds now has an option to order on a screen and has reduced staff as a result.

Supermarkets have self service till so less till staff

Nearly all of the large scale "re-structures" that happen involve low skilled admin staff  being replaced by AI - Tesco last year reduced staff by around 4,500.  Of that number  around 3,000 were replaced by AI.

The tugs that move aircraft at Heathrow used to have a driver - now they are driver-less

and on and on and on and on

The western world is facing in not so many years unemployment akin  to that of the great depression - but no one wants to talk about it and puts their head in the sand

There are at the moment still some low paid jobs in shops as cleaners in cafes etc 

Anyone on benefits should be offered these jobs

If they do not take them they should not get benefits - if they refuse to work they should not be able to ponce of the taxpayer

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4 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Surely if there were a German farmer someone could show evidence of him being here?

There is a difference between allowed to do something and being paid to do something.  I would like to live in a nicer area than I do but I don't expect the tax payer to pay me to do so (I probably could afford to if my taxes were not used to subsidize others living there).

Presumably you think that European countries that don't pay British people to go and live there are morally disgusting as well.

The fact that you and me don't know any German farmer in the UK is not a proof there isn't one. We simply don't know.

People from the EU are working and living as anyone else in the UK. They are net contributors to the UK budget. They don't have more rights than you. The same for British in other EU countries.   

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8 minutes ago, slawek said:

We've got a German comedian, why not a farmer.

Those people will probably be allowed but will they want to come to a country where they are treated as a second class residents with limited rights being at whim of some xenophobes?  I doubt they will now on avoid the UK as a plague. 

Using your logic London should not allow in any one from North who doesn't speak a proper English or is low skilled. For me this way of thinking is just morally disgusting. 

The thing is, in London, immigrants are not treated like second class citizens. It is mostly the low immigration areas that are afraid of "mass uncontrolled immigration". They don't like that their country has changed, even if it isn't exactly in their area (*). I can't speak for the other metropolitan cities but plenty of immigrants are still going to want to come to London. It is a global city, amazingly vibrant, fantastic architecture, really varied suburbs and areas, full of youngsters and not so youngsters from across the globe. A certain type of people are drawn to that.

What makes me laugh is the same people who will happily sit on one thread on this site and loudly proclaim London to be a sh1thole, while on another thread proclaiming how it will continue to attract talent from all over the globe because of how amazing it is. 

Having said that, it won't be possible for a young European to simply come over to London anymore and make their way. That will put a lot of people off, particularly when there are other options around the EU. And if London is now equivalent to going anywhere else in the globe for those EU youngsters, rather than a hop on a flight with enough money to survive until they join a startup or whatever, a lot of them will just decide to go elsewhere, like the US for example.

(*) Incoming Bolton.

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57 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

The musician bit got me since very close to home - my Uncle was a jazz musician toured all over the world from the sixties till his passing a few years ago 

One of his boys my cousin ( with a Danish mum admittedly ) was doing the the black armband bit on the 31st Jan - when we discussed he said freedom of movement was why his Dad was successful WTF ?

Its a sort of propaganda that the EU is responsible for any form of success if it involved crossing a border - weird 

And another thing.  So much noise in the media and on forums about the impact of Brexit and immigration controls on Musicians.  What are they, 0.1% of the workforce? Less?

Shouldn't we be much more concerned about the impact of these changes on the millions of 'Dave in claims', 'Laura in accounts', 'Mike the tyre fitter' etc. etc.?

Professional musicians have too much time on their hands, know many influential people and appear very adept at pulling the various PR levers.

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4 minutes ago, slawek said:

The fact that you and me don't know any German farmer in the UK is not a proof there isn't one. We simply don't know.

People from the EU are working and living as anyone else in the UK. They are net contributors to the UK budget. They don't have more rights than you. The same for British in other EU countries.   

Not all people from the EU in the UK are net contributors to the UK budget - that is just wrong.  

 

4 minutes ago, slawek said:

 

People from the EU are working and living as anyone else in the UK. They are net contributors to the UK budget. They don't have more rights than you. The same for British in other EU countries.   

How many British people in the EU get their rent paid by the local tax payer?  If thousands of Brits were living on Spanish benefits in Spain, remain really missed an argument.

 

4 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

The thing is, in London, immigrants are not treated like second class citizens.

Very true they seem to get social housing a lot easier than natives.  A friend of mine was homeless the council said "Sorry we can't help you".  Friends of mine who are immigrants have not had the same experience.

Edited by iamnumerate
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9 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

UKIP did not start about immigration but because of the Maastricht treaty, it is possible that if we had had large scale immigration but the EU had not replaced the EEC we would still be in the EEC.

UKIP was in the end the anti-immigration party. That was obvious to anyone. And 99% of brexiters want to end freedom of movement (my guess).  Statistically that is incredibly unlikely to just be coincidence. Ending freedom of movement was the core of the brexit campaign. If it was just about not being in the EU we could have joined Norway, but that was never ever going to be an option for brexiters because it would have meant freedom of movement.

 

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