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They are offering EU citizens £2k to go home apparently, the guardian thinks this is terrible, i would have thought it was an amazing offer by their usual standards £2k to go and live in the world most successful trading zone?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/26/eu-citizens-offered-financial-incentives-to-leave-uk

 

 

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2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

They are offering EU citizens £2k to go home apparently, the guardian thinks this is terrible, i would have thought it was an amazing offer by their usual standards £2k to go and live in the world most successful trading zone?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/26/eu-citizens-offered-financial-incentives-to-leave-uk

 

 

Benjamin Morgan, who runs the EU homeless rights project at the Public Interest Law Centre, said: “It is clear from our casework that some of the most vulnerable EU citizens are yet to resolve their status. Barriers to application and delays in Home Office decision-making remain significant factors.

I think he means tramps and beggars.

Again, rather than bringing in our laws and rules the UK just needs to copy Spain's, which it is aplying to Brits:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

 

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

 

Thats entirely reasonable.

 

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47 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Benjamin Morgan, who runs the EU homeless rights project at the Public Interest Law Centre, said: “It is clear from our casework that some of the most vulnerable EU citizens are yet to resolve their status. Barriers to application and delays in Home Office decision-making remain significant factors.

I think he means tramps and beggars.

Again, rather than bringing in our laws and rules the UK just needs to copy Spain's, which it is aplying to Brits:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

 

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

 

Thats entirely reasonable.

 

I am pretty certain they are not happy how this is panning out.

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It will be interesting to see the final numbers come 31st June, the Home Office will be very busy with all those Hong Kongers coming over as well from 31st Jan I expect 6 million (4.8 million so far) don't think many will go home as they have it too good in this country and need to send mnies back to relatives espcially in poorer east european countries like bulgaria and romania.  

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4 hours ago, coypondboy said:

It will be interesting to see the final numbers come 31st June, the Home Office will be very busy with all those Hong Kongers coming over as well from 31st Jan I expect 6 million (4.8 million so far) don't think many will go home as they have it too good in this country and need to send mnies back to relatives espcially in poorer east european countries like bulgaria and romania.  

I see from your comments on this forum that you know the future. Can you tell me what should I do right now? What should I invest my money in? 

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In France (which I'm sure is similar to most other EU countries), you had to set up residency before the 31/12. This means gathering supporting documents and evidence that you have given up your UK life and settled there instead. Things like P85's (useful although not obligatory), utility bills, full health insurance until you're in the system (obligatory), bank accounts, proof of purchasing a house or renting a place etc... If you've been there less than 5 years then you can apply for a 5 year temporary residency permit, but have to prove a certain level of income or savings, and there's more documentation to provide. For over 5 years it's very simple and straight forward. The French made their online system very easy to follow (you can even do the application in English).

I was amazed at how many second home owners thought they could apply for a residency permit, or how many people moved over with just a week or so before the deadline, scrambling to get together the necessary evidence and paperwork to prove they've moved before the deadline. Talk about stress. Also a lot of people living under the radar, or those who have never submitted a tax return surfaced too, realising their lives could become very difficult if they didn't get themselves sorted out. The deadline for the permits is June, and they are obligatory from October onwards, but I think there will still be a good number of people either trying to continue under the radar, or perhaps totally oblivious to this new requirement.

I don't know how the UK system works, but I suspect it's something along similar lines.

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1 hour ago, crash-and-burn said:

In France (which I'm sure is similar to most other EU countries), you had to set up residency before the 31/12. This means gathering supporting documents and evidence that you have given up your UK life and settled there instead. Things like P85's (useful although not obligatory), utility bills, full health insurance until you're in the system (obligatory), bank accounts, proof of purchasing a house or renting a place etc... If you've been there less than 5 years then you can apply for a 5 year temporary residency permit, but have to prove a certain level of income or savings, and there's more documentation to provide. For over 5 years it's very simple and straight forward. The French made their online system very easy to follow (you can even do the application in English).

I was amazed at how many second home owners thought they could apply for a residency permit, or how many people moved over with just a week or so before the deadline, scrambling to get together the necessary evidence and paperwork to prove they've moved before the deadline. Talk about stress. Also a lot of people living under the radar, or those who have never submitted a tax return surfaced too, realising their lives could become very difficult if they didn't get themselves sorted out. The deadline for the permits is June, and they are obligatory from October onwards, but I think there will still be a good number of people either trying to continue under the radar, or perhaps totally oblivious to this new requirement.

I don't know how the UK system works, but I suspect it's something along similar lines.

No local registry, that is the problem. I have a Boomer relative who is very dodgy (BTL etc, members of girl friends family in prison for drug dealing etc). He now lives in spain, doesn't register, doesn't pay tax AFAIK. Whenever he needs health care straight  on plane to access NHS In fact almst everytime i have spoken to an expat on plane heading to the UK it is to access the NHS as they have no health insurance on the continent. I admit it winds me up.

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7 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

No local registry, that is the problem. I have a Boomer relative who is very dodgy (BTL etc, members of girl friends family in prison for drug dealing etc). He now lives in spain, doesn't register, doesn't pay tax AFAIK. Whenever he needs health care straight  on plane to access NHS In fact almst everytime i have spoken to an expat on plane heading to the UK it is to access the NHS as they have no health insurance on the continent. I admit it winds me up.

I wonder how they're accessing NHS now?

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14 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

No local registry, that is the problem. I have a Boomer relative who is very dodgy (BTL etc, members of girl friends family in prison for drug dealing etc). He now lives in spain, doesn't register, doesn't pay tax AFAIK. Whenever he needs health care straight  on plane to access NHS In fact almst everytime i have spoken to an expat on plane heading to the UK it is to access the NHS as they have no health insurance on the continent. I admit it winds me up.

I'm not sure how that would work now. Travel is difficult, and if he went to the UK and could still get treatment under the NHS without a GHIC, they may not be able to travel back without some sort of official residency permit. Passports will be stamped now too. I suspect the days of flying over for NHS treatments are drawing to a close.

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The government says scheme has been a success but campaigners fear European migrants will lose UK rights

https://www.ft.com/content/ee9e71d5-0aa2-456c-8cbc-485889d3dabb



Robert Wright in London 11 HOURS AGO Print this page Be the first to know about every new Coronavirus story Subscribed Charities and campaign groups have expressed growing alarm at the number of European migrants who may be ignorant of the need to apply to remain in Britain after a June deadline imposed as part of the country’s post-Brexit immigration system.

Although the Home Office in December said it had received 4.9m applications for the UK’s settled status scheme — 1.1m more than the number it predicted back in 2018 — campaigners said many more remain unaware, risking thousands of eligible people being cut off from rights to live, work and claim benefits in Britain.

...



“From our experience, we’re very worried and concerned that we won’t reach everybody,” said Mags Brady, chief executive of PBIC, a charity in Bedford, north of London, that helps eastern European migrants with issues such as learning English and employment rights as well as applying for the EU settled status scheme.

...



Assessing the true number of European migrants who remain and are at risk of being left in legal limbo after that date is made all the more difficult because of a lack of a central record. Before Brexit, people born in the EU were free to live and work in the UK without needing to meet new requirements to earn at least £25,600 or to have certain skills specified under Britain’s immigration system.

..



Joanna Karwecka, an immigration adviser working for the East European Resource Centre in Hammersmith, west London, said applicants she was helping often lacked any kind of internet access. Like other support groups, EERC was currently unable to offer face-to-face consultations because of coronavirus restrictions.

...



Marianne Lagrue, policy manager at Coram Children’s Legal Centre, a London-based charity that has also received Home Office funding, said evidence of the right to remain in the UK could be especially hard to find for children in local authority or foster care. Language barriers and other problems also made some families especially hard to reach.

https://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/

Children left out? focuses particularly on the needs of vulnerable children, including the unknown number of children eligible to apply who are in the criminal justice system, the estimated 5000 EU children are in local authority care, separated from their families, and children from outside the EU whose right to apply comes from a family member.

 

One, any EU kids in care should have been sent back to their relatives FFS.

Two, any European having problems applying should not be in the UK.

Three, how comes its Just EE?

Fours, 1000s?? Or a few million. I think its the latter.

Five, is anyone aware of any charity supporting Brits living on benefits in Eruope?

Quick google brings this up from 2015:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

I think we can ditch this claim now.

30k brits v ~3m+ Euers claimign inwork benefits.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, spyguy said:

The government says scheme has been a success but campaigners fear European migrants will lose UK rights

https://www.ft.com/content/ee9e71d5-0aa2-456c-8cbc-485889d3dabb



Robert Wright in London 11 HOURS AGO Print this page Be the first to know about every new Coronavirus story Subscribed Charities and campaign groups have expressed growing alarm at the number of European migrants who may be ignorant of the need to apply to remain in Britain after a June deadline imposed as part of the country’s post-Brexit immigration system.

Although the Home Office in December said it had received 4.9m applications for the UK’s settled status scheme — 1.1m more than the number it predicted back in 2018 — campaigners said many more remain unaware, risking thousands of eligible people being cut off from rights to live, work and claim benefits in Britain.

...



“From our experience, we’re very worried and concerned that we won’t reach everybody,” said Mags Brady, chief executive of PBIC, a charity in Bedford, north of London, that helps eastern European migrants with issues such as learning English and employment rights as well as applying for the EU settled status scheme.

...



Assessing the true number of European migrants who remain and are at risk of being left in legal limbo after that date is made all the more difficult because of a lack of a central record. Before Brexit, people born in the EU were free to live and work in the UK without needing to meet new requirements to earn at least £25,600 or to have certain skills specified under Britain’s immigration system.

..



Joanna Karwecka, an immigration adviser working for the East European Resource Centre in Hammersmith, west London, said applicants she was helping often lacked any kind of internet access. Like other support groups, EERC was currently unable to offer face-to-face consultations because of coronavirus restrictions.

...



Marianne Lagrue, policy manager at Coram Children’s Legal Centre, a London-based charity that has also received Home Office funding, said evidence of the right to remain in the UK could be especially hard to find for children in local authority or foster care. Language barriers and other problems also made some families especially hard to reach.

https://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/

Children left out? focuses particularly on the needs of vulnerable children, including the unknown number of children eligible to apply who are in the criminal justice system, the estimated 5000 EU children are in local authority care, separated from their families, and children from outside the EU whose right to apply comes from a family member.

 

One, any EU kids in care should have been sent back to their relatives FFS.

Two, any European having problems applying should not be in the UK.

Three, how comes its Just EE?

Fours, 1000s?? Or a few million. I think its the latter.

Five, is anyone aware of any charity supporting Brits living on benefits in Eruope?

Quick google brings this up from 2015:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

I think we can ditch this claim now.

30k brits v ~3m+ Euers claimign inwork benefits.

 

 

 

 

 

I like this bit from the article

 

Quote

The former Polish prime minister will be less than keen to agree concessions affecting the many Poles in Britain – at 15,000, the biggest single EU nationality drawing UK jobseeker’s allowance, against just two Britons recorded as receiving Polish unemployment benefit. The task will get harder in 2015 if, as many predict, Jarosław Kaczyński – a chippy, bristling rightwing nationalist – becomes Poland’s prime minister.

I wonder how the average level of housing benefit compares?  Or the number of Spaniards and Eastern Europeans living in council houses here compared to Brits in other countries.

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6 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I like this bit from the article

 

I wonder how the average level of housing benefit compares?  Or the number of Spaniards and Eastern Europeans living in council houses here compared to Brits in other countries.

Every single EEers in Mrs spies primary class is on the highest benefits, meaning earnings are below ~12k.

Mainly EE but Portuguese and German and Spanish too.

Each family is getting ~1-2kk cash a month + HB + CB + 12 x NMW + whatever cash in hand work + 7k/kid education + ~6k/family NHS.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, spyguy said:

Every single EEers in Mrs spies primary class is on the highest benefits, meaning earnings are below ~12k.

Mainly EE but Portuguese and German and Spanish too.

Each family is getting ~1-2kk cash a month + HB + CB + 12 x NMW + whatever cash in hand work + 7k/kid education + ~6k/family NHS.

 

 

 

I wonder how long before the money finishes 

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3 hours ago, shlomo said:

I wonder how long before the money finishes 

EUers have right to remain. That's it.

If the EUers number were off 10% then there might not be a fuss or even Brexit.

These figures are heading to 6m+. And that's with 1m+ leaving.

The EU numbers and the cost due to in work benefits and public services is a massive scandal.

Even if the UK adopted Dozins deal for Brits 2k month earning plus 500 for each family member, which is fair, could see 80% of EUers thrown out.

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11 hours ago, spyguy said:

EUers have right to remain. That's it.

If the EUers number were off 10% then there might not be a fuss or even Brexit.

These figures are heading to 6m+. And that's with 1m+ leaving.

The EU numbers and the cost due to in work benefits and public services is a massive scandal.

Even if the UK adopted Dozins deal for Brits 2k month earning plus 500 for each family member, which is fair, could see 80% of EUers thrown out.

Or even if we had not been giving them benefits and council houses.  I was pro Eu, until I saw that we gave European council housing when I was struggling.  Nothing to do with Nigel Farage - he really didn't win the referendum

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14 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Or even if we had not been giving them benefits and council houses.  I was pro Eu, until I saw that we gave European council housing when I was struggling. 

The challenge was that EU citizens had to have equal rights and access as UK citizens. On the face of it that sounds reasonable, however being new arrivals they were generally more in need, so often had a higher priority for housing in practice. 

In my youth I applied for affordable housing schemes with Hammersmith& Fulham Council. I was from the area but that didn't make any difference because the council prioritised affordable housing based on need, and by this criteria I had no chance against recently arrived EUers who had very little savings (most likely still in banks in the EU, so invisible to H&F) and were primarily in entry level low paid jobs.

Ironically, because they were more in need to begin with they are now significantly better off than the brits applying for the same housing. I saw this for how rigged it was and just gave up and left London. You can only really live there if you're very rich or very poor, and i was neither. 

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1 hour ago, sammersmith said:

The challenge was that EU citizens had to have equal rights and access as UK citizens. On the face of it that sounds reasonable, however being new arrivals they were generally more in need, so often had a higher priority for housing in practice. 

In my youth I applied for affordable housing schemes with Hammersmith& Fulham Council. I was from the area but that didn't make any difference because the council prioritised affordable housing based on need, and by this criteria I had no chance against recently arrived EUers who had very little savings (most likely still in banks in the EU, so invisible to H&F) and were primarily in entry level low paid jobs.

Ironically, because they were more in need to begin with they are now significantly better off than the brits applying for the same housing. I saw this for how rigged it was and just gave up and left London. You can only really live there if you're very rich or very poor, and i was neither. 

True however if they don't work we didn't have to support them.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/inactive-citizens/index_en.htm

Quote

As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country for a period of up to 3 months as long as you have a valid identity card or passport. If you want to settle in another EU country but you have no intention to take up any work or education there, you need to prove that you:

have sufficient resources for you and your family during the time you want to stay in your new country

have comprehensive health insurance

No idea why when single mums came here from other countries we didn't say no benefits.  I guess it would have been racist!

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5 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Not re3lly comparable, in Germany they make employers pay a living wage rather split the cost with the state.

No.

Germany was worse than the UK up until the Hartz reform, which brought in a basic form of workfare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept

You dont have an option to not work - national or mgirant.

Theres no 16h of made up work.

 

 

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3 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

True however if they don't work we didn't have to support them.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/inactive-citizens/index_en.htm

No idea why when single mums came here from other countries we didn't say no benefits.  I guess it would have been racist!

Again, it the lack of ID cards and local registry which is the main culprit. Under EU rules you can remove someone who is economically in active if they are recent arrivals (i think 3 months?). In the UK it is impossible to prove when someone arrived! All they need to do is to tell the police they have been here for 6 months looking for work and there is not much the police can do. Some countries (eg Belgium) you have to register and if you are unemployed they make life hell for you until you get a job or leave. If you have not registered and are on the streets you are deported anyway.

an example of uk judges view

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

Belgians of the other hand

https://euobserver.com/justice/150288

 

Edited by debtlessmanc
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17 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Again, it the lack of ID cards and local registry which is the main culprit. Under EU rules you can remove someone who is economically in active if they are recent arrivals (i think 3 months?). In the UK it is impossible to prove when someone arrived! All they need to do is to tell the police they have been here for 6 months looking for work and there is not much the police can do. Some countries (eg Belgium) you have to register and if you are unemployed they make life hell for you until you get a job or leave. If you have not registered and are on the streets you are deported anyway.

And ID cards would prevent that how? ID cards are only good for reminding people they exist at the state's sufferance, they have no practical benefit for anything.

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30 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Again, it the lack of ID cards and local registry which is the main culprit. Under EU rules you can remove someone who is economically in active if they are recent arrivals (i think 3 months?). In the UK it is impossible to prove when someone arrived! All they need to do is to tell the police they have been here for 6 months looking for work and there is not much the police can do. Some countries (eg Belgium) you have to register and if you are unemployed they make life hell for you until you get a job or leave. If you have not registered and are on the streets you are deported anyway.

an example of uk judges view

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

Belgians of the other hand

https://euobserver.com/justice/150288

 

I think it is also attitude.  If you work in local government and someone from Spain says "I am a single mum please give me a house."  You can either a) give it to her b) check carefully, refuse it and risk the BBC and Guardian calling you racist.

Who is going to chose b?

Edited by iamnumerate
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12 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

And ID cards would prevent that how? ID cards are only good for reminding people they exist at the state's sufferance, they have no practical benefit for anything.

I am not a fan of them, but it is required for local registration to prove who you are on the continent, it is a way in which laws made in the EU do not apply so well to us. I have been told by Germans that moving to the UK from germany is easier and less bureacratic than moving between states within Germany itself.

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3 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

I think it is also attitude.  If you work in local government and someone from Spain says "I am a single mum please give me a house."  You can either a) give it to her b) check carefully, refuse it and risk the BBC and Guardian calling you racist.

Who is going to chose b?

Again, I worry that you really believe your own stream of nonsense. 

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