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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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OK implicit assumption.

Rather than having a framework where member countries can sort issues out, the EU ends up providing a large rug to sweep problems  under.

Euro - allowed less productive countries to borrow cheaply as the markets assumed, rightly, that Europe would not want to these countries to default.

Migration - do nothing. Then,. when it gets bad, blame Greece and Italy for letting people in.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

I don't think it is the EU's response it is The individual states' response to any Economic or social problem, export it elsewhere in the EU. The EU's response is the dogmatic one we hear from the pro remain posters here " just people moving around their own superstate , nothing to see here, move along". I posted before about the Spanish person working for me until recently was offered nominally similar jobs in the U.K. and Spain at the same time but pay and conditions being so much better here it was a no brainier (this is a high skill job). I got to know her quite well, actually quite nationalistic when she arrived (best not discuss Gibraltar or Catalonia). She ended up disgusted by her own country and has no intention of ever going back there. Of course this is great for the U.K. in a sense but I what it is not is a leveller across Europe. The U.K.leaders  always lost that argument, Cameron tried to win brownie points by claiming that the U.K. was creating all the jobs in the EU. It didnt work as the dogma had it that the U.K. was just fulfilling its treaty obligations, thus ignoring the elephant in the room that the others were not.

Strange that there are a lot of countries not in the EU who have the same problem, they're not creating jobs and environments to retain their youth and talented workers, who would rather immigrate elsewhere.

Do you blame EU freedom of movement? 

How do you feel about the new UK points based system?

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Just now, spyguy said:

Migration - do nothing. Then,. when it gets bad, blame Greece and Italy for letting people in.

Migration - do something and watch the ethno-nationalists jet engine whinge that the EU are interfering in nation state affairs.

Migration - attempt to help out and watch the ethno-nationlists jet engine whinge that Merkel is the 4th reich and is trying to flood Europe with brown people for her own nefarious purposes.

We've heard all of it sooooo many times spyguy. It's very boring now.

You guys long ago decided that the EU should not exist, it is the problem and can be blamed for every issue in Europe. And you will do so, even taking opposite sides of the same argument just to keep blaming the EU.

 

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11 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No, Migration is an EU wide issue.

Merkel unilaterally opened the EU borders. Then shut them when it became a political hot potato, dumping the problem on border countries.

 

No, incorrect interpretation.

Merkel responded during a point where Italy and Greece were becoming overwhelmed and other states were refusing to help. She was naive, but her motive was to show that Germany would act first if it encouraged other states to also help Greece and Italy.

Politically it backfired because there were ethno-nationalists like yourself waiting in the wings to create propaganda out of her action and reframe it as you've done above. And your tactic worked very well, people believed your message, though it was untrue.

So she unwound that policy and once again, Greece and Italy were left to fend for themselves.

Remember when brexiters were raging against Germany for not helping Greece more with their financial woes. Well, look what they do when Germany does attempt to help.

The reality is that nothing the EU (and Germany because in brexiters minds Germany is the core of the EU) does will ever be seen in a positive light by brexiters and other nationalists. The message will always be twisted to a way that portrays the EU as bad, not because of any truth, but because that is what brexiters want to do.

 

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28 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Strange that there are a lot of countries not in the EU who have the same problem, they're not creating jobs and environments to retain their youth and talented workers, who would rather immigrate elsewhere.

Do you blame EU freedom of movement? 

How do you feel about the new UK points based system?

The countries not in the EU do not have brussels playing a role in their affairs (or only by setting import/export rules) so they can only blame themselves. My only argument wrt FoM was that the EU should have operated in another way, insisting on crackdowns on corruptuion, tax avoidance and, yes. giving money to modernize the countries infrastructure. Then, and only then (could take 10 years say), FoM with the rest of the EU.

As to the EU's existance, it should have remained as the EEC and if the creation of a superstate were to happen in the future it would happen by democratic conscent between roughly equivalent economies and governances. Creating an entity everyone agrees on. I realy am at a loss as to the the sort headlong rush into adding states like Albania to the mix. The only logic (this is relevent to scotland) is that the major countries (read italy, france, germany) are trying a kind of divide and rule amongst minor states. I always had the impression that the UK's stances and indeed influence was most popular in the small states and unpopular in the large ones. Now, of course, Brexit has shifted the whole scene.

points based system, if you think (as i do ) that migration is a postive, even necessary, then it is the logical thing to do to be honest.

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58 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

The countries not in the EU do not have brussels playing a role in their affairs (or only by setting import/export rules) so they can only blame themselves. My only argument wrt FoM was that the EU should have operated in another way, insisting on crackdowns on corruptuion, tax avoidance and, yes. giving money to modernize the countries infrastructure. Then, and only then (could take 10 years say), FoM with the rest of the EU.

More gibberish. 

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Just now, dugsbody said:

More gibberish. 

"My only argument wrt FoM was that the EU should have operated in another way, insisting on crackdowns on corruption, tax avoidance and, yes. giving money to modernize the countries infrastructure. Then, and only then (could take 10 years say), FoM with the rest of the EU. "

Plain english -but Difficult for you to understand? you betray yourself, anything that criticises the commission is gibberish to you.

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2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

"My only argument wrt FoM was that the EU should have operated in another way, insisting on crackdowns on corruption, tax avoidance and, yes. giving money to modernize the countries infrastructure. Then, and only then (could take 10 years say), FoM with the rest of the EU. "

Plain english -but Difficult for you to understand? you betray yourself, anything that criticises the commission is gibberish to you.

Because it makes no sense and attempting to unwind this is really, really tiresome.

It is far easier to type stuff that reads as English but is really just disjointed nonsense with no logical connection, no attempt to justify with wider examples, taking into account global problems.

I'm just tired of unwinding your crap for today, sorry.

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

No, incorrect interpretation.

Merkel responded during a point where Italy and Greece were becoming overwhelmed and other states were refusing to help. She was naive, but her motive was to show that Germany would act first if it encouraged other states to also help Greece and Italy.

Politically it backfired because there were ethno-nationalists like yourself waiting in the wings to create propaganda out of her action and reframe it as you've done above. And your tactic worked very well, people believed your message, though it was untrue.

So she unwound that policy and once again, Greece and Italy were left to fend for themselves.

Remember when brexiters were raging against Germany for not helping Greece more with their financial woes. Well, look what they do when Germany does attempt to help.

The reality is that nothing the EU (and Germany because in brexiters minds Germany is the core of the EU) does will ever be seen in a positive light by brexiters and other nationalists. The message will always be twisted to a way that portrays the EU as bad, not because of any truth, but because that is what brexiters want to do.

 

I think her policy made things work as it made that there a reason to come to Europe.  Incentives matter.

 

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

 

The reality is that nothing the EU (and Germany because in brexiters minds Germany is the core of the EU) does will ever be seen in a positive light by brexiters and other nationalists. The message will always be twisted to a way that portrays the EU as bad, not because of any truth, but because that is what brexiters want to do.

 

I am a brexiter because of CFP, ERM and paying people to come here.  I could have voted remain if these 3 had been changed.  It is not as black as white as you think.

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3 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I think her policy made things work as it made that there a reason to come to Europe.  Incentives matter.

That was definitely the message that was put out after the fact and it is easy to believe. But is it the truth? I did a bit of digging to try understand and it seems to be disputed because of the timelines of arrivals and the length of the trip. Ie. Most migrants of the large wave were already underway before Merkel tried to help.

But even assuming she did make things worse, do you see any discrepancies here? People fed up with EU inaction, demanding countries help Greece and Italy. When Germany does try to help, they immediately get blamed for making it worse.

Leaving individual state aside, what possible way could the EU have acted here that would have pleased everyone? They're in a lose/lose situation, the migrant crisis was and is really testing European states relationships, and this would be true if the EU had never even existed. 

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52 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

That was definitely the message that was put out after the fact and it is easy to believe. But is it the truth? I did a bit of digging to try understand and it seems to be disputed because of the timelines of arrivals and the length of the trip. Ie. Most migrants of the large wave were already underway before Merkel tried to help.

But even assuming she did make things worse, do you see any discrepancies here? People fed up with EU inaction, demanding countries help Greece and Italy. When Germany does try to help, they immediately get blamed for making it worse.

Leaving individual state aside, what possible way could the EU have acted here that would have pleased everyone? They're in a lose/lose situation, the migrant crisis was and is really testing European states relationships, and this would be true if the EU had never even existed. 

I think that is true that the EU can not please everyone because

a) some countries were suffering

b) some countries are anti mass migration

c) some are pro.

I would have been pleased if they had put Orban in charge - but I don't think everyone else would have been pleased.

 

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6 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I think that is true that the EU can not please everyone because

a) some countries were suffering

b) some countries are anti mass migration

c) some are pro.

I would have been pleased if they had put Orban in charge - but I don't think everyone else would have been pleased.

 

I think every country in the EU is anti-mass migration from asylum/economic migrants, those external to the EU. 

On the whole, EU countries view freedom of movement within the EU positively to extremely positively. The exception was the UK, which has always had a testy relationship with mainland Europe.

But back to the original point, it has now become understood wisdom in certain circles that Merkel caused the migration crisis. This is because people latched onto that idea and spread it, because it suited their political aims. 

I want to be more informed. I don't want to be part of someones political aims. That is why I question this fact.

Here is an example:

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/research-subject-groups/centre-criminology/centreborder-criminologies/blog/2016/09/fact-check-did-

But, I understand that there is a lot of information out there and sometimes it is just easier to believe the messages that more align with your own views.

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

I think every country in the EU is anti-mass migration from asylum/economic migrants, those external to the EU. 

On the whole, EU countries view freedom of movement within the EU positively to extremely positively. The exception was the UK, which has always had a testy relationship with mainland Europe.

But back to the original point, it has now become understood wisdom in certain circles that Merkel caused the migration crisis. This is because people latched onto that idea and spread it, because it suited their political aims. 

I want to be more informed. I don't want to be part of someones political aims. That is why I question this fact.

Here is an example:

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/research-subject-groups/centre-criminology/centreborder-criminologies/blog/2016/09/fact-check-did-

But, I understand that there is a lot of information out there and sometimes it is just easier to believe the messages that more align with your own views.

I don't think she caused the crisis - I think her response was wrong though.

I don't think the UK is anti external migrants or rather defacto it is not.  It is still very easy (I know someone who did about 4 years ago) to claim asylum in the UK when you are not in danger.

A friend of mine told me that if Colombians claim asylum in the US they can not visit Colombia nor neighbouring countries - the same is not true in the UK.

Edited by iamnumerate
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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

I don't think the UK is anti external migrants or rather defacto it is not.  It is still very easy (I know someone who did about 4 years ago) to claim asylum in the UK when you are not in danger.

It is to the same extent that other countries in the EU are. They take far more asylum seekers than the UK and the EU has had to pay money to Turkey to stop even more. You can reference Farage and a bunch of other people to find out what the average Brit feels about migrants in boats crossing from France to the UK. They definitely do not want to help out Italy and Greece. They view it as their problem, not ours.

I think their views on how to appropriate share the burden might be quite the reverse if our country was bordering on Syria for example.

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29 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

It is to the same extent that other countries in the EU are. They take far more asylum seekers than the UK and the EU has had to pay money to Turkey to stop even more. You can reference Farage and a bunch of other people to find out what the average Brit feels about migrants in boats crossing from France to the UK. They definitely do not want to help out Italy and Greece. They view it as their problem, not ours.

 

True although I think there are quite a lot of people who are pro immigration.

29 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

 

I think their views on how to appropriate share the burden might be quite the reverse if our country was bordering on Syria for example.

I wonder what Hungary would do in that situation - only let Christians enter and no one else?  Quite possibly.

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2 hours ago, shlomo said:

You seem to have an evil streak in you, did life deal you some bad cards.

I don't think I am evil nor had some bad cards, perhaps I was not clear.

I meant that I am very glad that your parents managed to escape Nazi Germany - not that they had to leave of course. It was a tragic time and I wish we had let more people escape.

However just because some/many/all asylum seekers are genuine doesn't mean all.

There are some who are truly evil for example Abu Qatada should never have been let into the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Qatada

There are also others who just use it as a way to come to the UK (I have met many).

Certainly if someone gets asylum and then books a flight home for a holiday the next day their claim is suspect.

(I would guess your family didn't go back for many years).

 

Edited by iamnumerate
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5 hours ago, shlomo said:

My parents came as Asylum Seekers from Nazi Germany.

There is a wonderful documentary (it can still be found on youtube) about the kinder transport  and Sir Nicholas Winton. It is one of the most life affirming things i have seen. Particularly the witness who describes being dumped at liverpool st and waiting in a crowd of children to be taken to foster parents. By the evening a dozen children were left by parents who could not get there in time. A London cabbie asked why they were there, when told he took them home to his one bed flat were his wife (with baby) fed them and let them sleep on floors, chairs etc. He says that he decided there and then that english people were the kindest he had ever met.

But now? 600,000 a year seek a house, car, job, they seek the western life the TV and internet promised to them. English people have become weary of it,. It is a tragedy for both peoples- both the seekers and providers. UK society has become harder and crueler, personally I wonder whose fault that is.

edit to add, btw my great uncle was in the division that liberated Belsen, he told me about what he saw, he was always very pro the existance of israel, but, of course, that is not PC these days either.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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32 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

There is a wonderful documentary (it can still be found on youtube) about the kinder transport  and Sir Nicholas Winton. It is one of the most life affirming things i have seen. Particularly the witness who describes being dumped at liverpool st and waiting in a crowd of children to be taken to foster parents. By the evening a dozen children were left by parents who could not get there in time. A London cabbie asked why they were there, when told he took them home to his one bed flat were his wife (with baby) fed them and let them sleep on floors, chairs etc. He says that he decided there and then that english people were the kindest he had ever met.

But now? 600,000 a year seek a house, car, job, they seek the western life the TV and internet promised to them. English people have become weary of it,. It is a tragedy for both peoples- both the seekers and providers. UK society has become harder and crueler, personally I wonder whose fault that is.

edit to add, btw my great uncle was in the division that liberated Belsen, he told me about what he saw, he was always very pro the existance of israel, but, of course, that is not PC these days either.

Your great uncle would be utterly ashamed of you. 

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9 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Your great uncle would be utterly ashamed of you. 

I doubt it very much.  I have ancestors who were fled England in the 17th century after the restoration - they never came back.  There is a big difference between people like that and people who just claim to be in danger for money and go back home on holiday!

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-seehofer-warns-refugees-who-take-syria-vacations/a-50069317

Quote

Refugees who return to Syria for holidays might lose their refugee status in Germany, German Interior Minister Horst Seehofer told the Bild newspaper. Some newcomers simultaneously claim to be fleeing persecution there.

 

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11 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Your great uncle would be utterly ashamed of you. 

He was anti our membership of the -EEC , I am not going to expand his reasons here, he is long dead. He would be ashamed of me if I was a corbynite anti-Israel nut. I've been to Israel -only half decent country in the ME

Edited by debtlessmanc
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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

I doubt it very much.  I have ancestors who were fled England in the 17th century after the restoration - they never came back.  There is a big difference between people like that and people who just claim to be in danger for money and go back home on holiday!

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-seehofer-warns-refugees-who-take-syria-vacations/a-50069317

 

An Iranian friend of mine (old man been on the U.K. since the 60's) complained to me years ago that the people turning up in his mosque who were claiming asylum had completely the wrong accents to be Iranian Kurds, they were Turkish. He was really annoyed that the authorities were taken in by this. That was 20 odd years ago.

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