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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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31 minutes ago, spyguy said:

So ... Polish FOM  migration  plays a significant part in causing Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53385021

Now it undermines the evolution of Polish democracy.

The news had a Polish woman on, saying 'Young Polish, leave, there is no future for you here'. Ignoring the fact that this was caused by several million under 50s leaving in the fist place.

Only positive for Poland is that the Balkans are even worse.

 

 

 

 

It wouldn’t be a proper thread on immigration without SpyGirls unenlightened misinformation. Hey thicko the Poles could vote from abroad. ?

Edited by MonsieurCopperCrutch
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9 minutes ago, spyguy said:

They didnt.

Obywatele mogą głosować w wyborach krajowych w państwie ich pochodzenia z zagranicy.

Podczas pobytu za granicą, można głosować w następujących rodzajach wyborów krajowych:

  • wybory do Sejmu RP i do Senatu RP
  • wybory do Parlamentu Europejskiego
  • wybory Prezydenta Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej

Aby głosować z zagranicy w wyborach krajowych, obywatele muszą dokonać następujących procedur:

  • należy za pomocą faksu lub pocztą zgłosić do placówki – konsularno –dyplomatycznej właściwej ze względu na miejsce pobytu za granicą wolę wpisania obywatela na listę wyborców, najpóźniej 3 dni przed przewidywanym terminem wyborów.

Wyborca zmieniający miejsce pobytu przed wyborami np. wyjeżdżający za granicę może głosować na podstawie zaświadczenia o prawie do głosowania w miejscu pobytu w trakcie wyborów (art. 32 Kodeksu wyborczego).

So yes they could. 

Edited by MonsieurCopperCrutch
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11 minutes ago, spyguy said:

They didnt.

They did https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/12/poland-votes-poles-head-to-the-ballot-box-in-knife-edge-presidential-election-runoff

although I suspect there are more than 180,000 potential polish voters in the UK, the rest probably aren't that bothered about returning (the ones I know aren't planning to ever return).

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On 11/07/2020 at 08:02, spyguy said:

When you look at the whos here - lots of families with kids and that they are low paid (Every single EUer,. not just EE, in Mrs spys school is on the max support as they earn f-all) the pitch that '3m EUers, paying tax' is a huge lie.

Well, on the one hand we do have the stats, on the other hand we have spyguy of the internet's say-so. 

I'm not sure which I trust, perhaps it is the person that has thousand and thousands of anti-immigration posts. No bias there.

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On 13/07/2020 at 09:48, Houdini said:

They did https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/12/poland-votes-poles-head-to-the-ballot-box-in-knife-edge-presidential-election-runoff

although I suspect there are more than 180,000 potential polish voters in the UK, the rest probably aren't that bothered about returning (the ones I know aren't planning to ever return).

indeed the interesting thing there is the terrible turn out by UK based Poles and that those that did vote voted against the more nationalist party. The turn out of Turks in Germany was much higher for the Turkish elections and they voted overwhelmingly for a facist. The difference voting patterns between  these two probably (reassuringly) represents the better integration of Poles in the uk compared to Turks in Germany. But the poor turnout is more worrying, suggests that the Poles in the UK do not really care anymore what happens in Poland. Again reinforces my point that mass migration in the EU is creating rather than reducing divisions. After all if you are Duda you would encourge the young and open minded to leave. They will not vote against you again.

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On 13/07/2020 at 10:39, dugsbody said:

Well, on the one hand we do have the stats, on the other hand we have spyguy of the internet's say-so. 

I'm not sure which I trust, perhaps it is the person that has thousand and thousands of anti-immigration posts. No bias there.

Im pointing point the flaws in the UK benefit system, the problems with EU FOM and problems its creating in both the Western and Eastern European countries.

A lot of posters on here dont seem to be able to grasp complex, multi-variable situation, preferring to rely on shouting 'Enoch', or people who voted brexit are thick because they voted brexit.

Banging on with a daft EU policy that is basically destroying Europe's countries and social cohesion is not going to lead to a 'better Europe'

Same as the EURO

 

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https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/12/poland-votes-poles-head-to-the-ballot-box-in-knife-edge-presidential-election-runoff

Over 180,000 Poles were registered to vote in the UK, with 48.4 per cent voting for Trzaskowski in the first round of the presidential election, compared to just 15.5 per cent for Duda.

Officially, the UK is hosting 700k Poles. So only ~1/3 could be arsed to vote in a very important election whose result may see Poland eventually leaving the EU.

And of that 180k, ~30k voted for a Duda!

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On 13/07/2020 at 10:39, dugsbody said:

Well, on the one hand we do have the stats, on the other hand we have spyguy of the internet's say-so. 

I'm not sure which I trust, perhaps it is the person that has thousand and thousands of anti-immigration posts. No bias there.

Sadly we don't have any accurate stats.  In ideal world when you get a NI card somewhere would be recorded  your country of origin and the Government would be able to say immigrants from country x cost/benefit the UK compared to Brits of the same age.

I don't think this is because they don't want us to know - partly because of incompetence and partly because of arrogance ( we don't need to prove what we say, we know we are right).

Of course such figures could have made Brexit either a greater victory for leave - or a great victory for remain, so a great shame we don't know.

Edited by iamnumerate
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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

.  In ideal world when you get a NI card somewhere would be recorded  your country of origin and the Government would be able to say immigrants from country x cost/benefit the UK compared to Brits of the same age.

 

Maybe it is impossible to work out as time progresses 

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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Sadly we don't have any accurate stats.  In ideal world when you get a NI card somewhere would be recorded  your country of origin and the Government would be able to say immigrants from country x cost/benefit the UK compared to Brits of the same age.

I don't think this is because they don't want us to know - partly because of incompetence and partly because of arrogance ( we don't need to prove what we say, we know we are right).

Of course such figures could have made Brexit either a greater victory for leave - or a great victory for remain, so a great shame we don't know.

I think the number EUers in the UK gas been the biggest lie of the Brexit vote.

3m was a massive work of fiction. A lie. Something neither the UK pols or media thought to question, despite the evidence in front of their nose.

The June registration  figures are out soon. I wonder if theyll break 4m.

I'm guessing theyll carry on riding, hitting 5m as the Brexit talks hit a sensitive stage.

The unofficial number of EUers will be much bigger, running 2m-3m ahead of the registered number.

 

 

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2 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Sadly we don't have any accurate stats.  In ideal world when you get a NI card somewhere would be recorded  your country of origin and the Government would be able to say immigrants from country x cost/benefit the UK compared to Brits of the same age.

I don't think this is because they don't want us to know - partly because of incompetence and partly because of arrogance ( we don't need to prove what we say, we know we are right).

Of course such figures could have made Brexit either a greater victory for leave - or a great victory for remain, so a great shame we don't know.

I don't know. It will naturally be more than the official counted number (this is obvious when you think about the sets of people). 

I wish it had been different. I wish the UK had changed its internal systems to accurately measure and control this immigration. After all, only a small number of people had problems with EU immigration prior to 2004 and a slightly larger number prior to 2010. After the crisis, then the subsequent joining of more EE states, the rhetoric rapidly shifted.

If we'd had an EU referendum prior to the global financial crisis, the refugee crisis, and a number of EE states joining and the UK granting early access, we would have voted remain.

I still think it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater to end an issue that probably would not have lasted all that long. David Cameron truly was an idiot.

Anyway, we are where we are. I've come to terms with the vote (but not the lies that continue). It doesn't really impact me anyway but I support the concept of treating everyone more equally rather than just giving more freedoms to the well off.

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4 hours ago, spyguy said:

Im pointing point the flaws in the UK benefit system, the problems with EU FOM and problems its creating in both the Western and Eastern European countries.

Freedom of movement within the UK creates similar brain drain in the Northern counties where the talent is sucked to the London.

Weirdly, I don't see everyone crying to end freedom of movement in the UK. It's absurd, we think of it as a basic human right. Imagine trying to tell a poor person in the UK that because they were poor and didn't have enough education, they weren't allowed to leave their county. "In the interest of the county" of course.

Yes, FOM has some downsides but overall it is a massive privilege to human beings. We are all human. The EU member states see this and want this basic right to apply to all instead of just the privileged.

There are many issues in the world. The EU has problems. South America has problems. The US has problems. China, India, etc, etc. Yet somehow, in the EU, the problem must be because Eastern Europeans can live near spyguy.

So, in a nutshell, I don't believe your story. I think brexiters have latched onto this false narrative that they're just trying to be the good guys by stopping foreigners moving to the UK.

It is so obviously a facade it is laughable.

Edited by dugsbody
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I remember Pret A Manger being one of the companies campaigning for FOM to remain, as about 70% of their staff are EU citizens.

Interestingly, Pret is one of the companies badly hit by the Covid decimation of the “commuter economy”.

I wonder how many other companies won’t need all those extra staff now.

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40 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Freedom of movement within the UK creates similar brain drain in the Northern counties where the talent is sucked to the UK.

Weirdly, I don't see everyone crying to end freedom of movement in the UK. It's absurd, we think of it as a basic human right. Imagine trying to tell a poor person in the UK that because they were poor and didn't have enough education, they weren't allowed to leave their county. "In the interest of the county" of course.

Yes, FOM has some downsides but overall it is a massive privilege to human beings. We are all human. The EU member states see this and want this basic right to apply to all instead of just the privileged.

There are many issues in the world. The EU has problems. South America has problems. The US has problems. China, India, etc, etc. Yet somehow, in the EU, the problem must be because Eastern Europeans can live near spyguy.

So, in a nutshell, I don't believe your story. I think brexiters have latched onto this false narrative that they're just trying to be the good guys by stopping foreigners moving to the UK.

It is so obviously a facade it is laughable.

The problem is not that people move, it is that freedom of movement without similar legal, bureaucratic, taxation and currency regimes is a problem. You are quite right that within the uk it is a right (even if it has traditionally emptied the regions into london). But people do not move to avoid HMRC or to move to an area with less corruption etc because the central govt  uniformly applies laws and rules across the territory.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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53 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I don't know. It will naturally be more than the official counted number (this is obvious when you think about the sets of people). 

I wish it had been different. I wish the UK had changed its internal systems to accurately measure and control this immigration. After all, only a small number of people had problems with EU immigration prior to 2004 and a slightly larger number prior to 2010. After the crisis, then the subsequent joining of more EE states, the rhetoric rapidly shifted.

If we'd had an EU referendum prior to the global financial crisis, the refugee crisis, and a number of EE states joining and the UK granting early access, we would have voted remain.

I still think it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater to end an issue that probably would not have lasted all that long. David Cameron truly was an idiot.

Anyway, we are where we are. I've come to terms with the vote (but not the lies that continue). It doesn't really impact me anyway but I support the concept of treating everyone more equally rather than just giving more freedoms to the well off.

Bizarrely on this i find many remainers as stupidly ignorant of the rest of the  EU states as they accuse leavers of being. a few years ago i posted in a thread elsewhere that other EU states registered residents. A british remainer posted that this was not true, a German posted that it was certainly true in Germany. The original remainer proceeded to write a diatribe to the german that it was a disgrace that Germany impeded FoM in this way!! This idiot had obviously never lived on the continent but really believe that the UK impeded FoM  more than other states!

Edited by debtlessmanc
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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

I don't know. It will naturally be more than the official counted number (this is obvious when you think about the sets of people). 

I wish it had been different. I wish the UK had changed its internal systems to accurately measure and control this immigration. After all, only a small number of people had problems with EU immigration prior to 2004 and a slightly larger number prior to 2010. After the crisis, then the subsequent joining of more EE states, the rhetoric rapidly shifted.

If we'd had an EU referendum prior to the global financial crisis, the refugee crisis, and a number of EE states joining and the UK granting early access, we would have voted remain.

I still think it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater to end an issue that probably would not have lasted all that long. David Cameron truly was an idiot.

Anyway, we are where we are. I've come to terms with the vote (but not the lies that continue). It doesn't really impact me anyway but I support the concept of treating everyone more equally rather than just giving more freedoms to the well off.

You could say that Blair was an idiot as well for not proving with reliable figures that immigration makes us richer.

Or maybe he was lying when he said it did.

For me the things that are important are :-

1) Where are we going to house them

2) Is this costing me money or giving me money.

 

Edited by iamnumerate
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35 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

The problem is not that people move, it is that freedom of movement without similar legal, bureaucratic, taxation and currency regimes is a problem.

No it is not. That is a story you've invented to justify your view. It wasn't a problem prior to the global crisis and the EE states joining. It wasn't a problem for 40 years before that. It isn't a problem that we retain it with Ireland.

Freedom of movement continues to work, not without frictions, but it can and does work.

You just don't like it so you'll pick the narrative that allows you to justify not liking it.

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1 hour ago, Mancunian284 said:

I remember Pret A Manger being one of the companies campaigning for FOM to remain, as about 70% of their staff are EU citizens.

Interestingly, Pret is one of the companies badly hit by the Covid decimation of the “commuter economy”.

I wonder how many other companies won’t need all those extra staff now.

The horror. Human beings doing jobs. We need to automate these jobs away so that those poor exploited humans stay in their own lands and we don't have to hear them speaking foreign and they can improve their own economies that the EU is destroying.

I think I've ticked most of the boxes.

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52 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

The horror. Human beings doing jobs. We need to automate these jobs away so that those poor exploited humans stay in their own lands and we don't have to hear them speaking foreign and they can improve their own economies that the EU is destroying.

I think I've ticked most of the boxes.

You can argue that Prets turbo charge growth was due to being bought by  Bridgepoint in 2008, then having access to vast amounts of tax payer subbed Labour from EU.

Sandwiches hand made in each shop. Jesus.

 

 

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

The horror. Human beings doing jobs. We need to automate these jobs away so that those poor exploited humans stay in their own lands and we don't have to hear them speaking foreign and they can improve their own economies that the EU is destroying.

I think I've ticked most of the boxes.

They don’t need to be automated away.  The commuter economy has been decimated.

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Spain looks for jobs boost from EU pandemic recovery package

https://www.ft.com/content/e9280a42-0f67-4388-ac88-ef8b1a85afe9

52bba4f0-c5f5-11ea-b61b-a9c0bebc637c-sta

According to OECD forecasts, Spain is likely to suffer more from unemployment than any other member state. The organisation predicts Spanish joblessness is set to jump to almost 22 per cent by the end of the year — or 25.5 per cent if there is a second wave of infections. That could remain at one in five people up to the final quarter of 2021.

The country has never fully recovered from the financial crisis a decade ago, despite huge efforts since then to cut debts, increase exports and lower costs. On the eve of the pandemic, unemployment stood at 14 per cent, more than double the EU average. Youth unemployment was more than one in three.

Bear in mind that the last 10 years has seen the UK host a massive number of people from Spain, Portugal and  Italy.

The EU response to the under 40s employment  in the last 30 years has been - Move to the UK.

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Comments:

Corruption and patronage combined with stiff labour protection laws and 20% of GDP in the black economy.  And overly dependent on tourism. Could not be a worse combination.

This is a failed south American state right at the heart of the EU.

Now when you consider the vast number of passports that Spain has doled out to South Americans, most of which seem to be doing tax payer subbed low paid cleaning jobs in the London ...

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Spain looks for jobs boost from EU pandemic recovery package

https://www.ft.com/content/e9280a42-0f67-4388-ac88-ef8b1a85afe9

52bba4f0-c5f5-11ea-b61b-a9c0bebc637c-sta

According to OECD forecasts, Spain is likely to suffer more from unemployment than any other member state. The organisation predicts Spanish joblessness is set to jump to almost 22 per cent by the end of the year — or 25.5 per cent if there is a second wave of infections. That could remain at one in five people up to the final quarter of 2021.

The country has never fully recovered from the financial crisis a decade ago, despite huge efforts since then to cut debts, increase exports and lower costs. On the eve of the pandemic, unemployment stood at 14 per cent, more than double the EU average. Youth unemployment was more than one in three.

Bear in mind that the last 10 years has seen the UK host a massive number of people from Spain, Portugal and  Italy.

The EU response to the under 40s employment  in the last 30 years has been - Move to the UK.

I don't think it is the EU's response it is The individual states' response to any Economic or social problem, export it elsewhere in the EU. The EU's response is the dogmatic one we hear from the pro remain posters here " just people moving around their own superstate , nothing to see here, move along". I posted before about the Spanish person working for me until recently was offered nominally similar jobs in the U.K. and Spain at the same time but pay and conditions being so much better here it was a no brainier (this is a high skill job). I got to know her quite well, actually quite nationalistic when she arrived (best not discuss Gibraltar or Catalonia). She ended up disgusted by her own country and has no intention of ever going back there. Of course this is great for the U.K. in a sense but I what it is not is a leveller across Europe. The U.K.leaders  always lost that argument, Cameron tried to win brownie points by claiming that the U.K. was creating all the jobs in the EU. It didnt work as the dogma had it that the U.K. was just fulfilling its treaty obligations, thus ignoring the elephant in the room that the others were not.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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