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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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On 19/05/2020 at 14:46, sammersmith said:

Raw fruit and vegetables, eggs, and most meats farmed in the UK are ludicrously cheap. Expensive food is usually limited to value-added convenience meals and alcohol. You can buy a pack of tomatoes for 50p. I'd rather pay £1 for the tomatoes and have the welfare bill down. 

You might but most people will buy 50p Spanish tomatoes. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Presume you think that because i bring up inconvenient facts?

No, it is because you make claims then refuse to back them up. Also, words are cheap, actions almost always reveal the true nature. And you focus on FOM negatively, constantly, ignoring wider context. I have developed a mistrust for brexiters because they lie so often.

20 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

The UK should have used all the mechanisms available to put a break on migration from these states.

Agree. 

20 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

t could still do it if it really wanted. eg Make everyone talk an advanced english test to get a job (as almost all the other states do in their native languages).

Agree.

21 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

It is the starry eyed idealism of the UK liberal that lead to the vote going the way it did.

Well, to a degree I agree but us starry eyed liberals weren't given a choice by the UK government. FOM is a good thing. We absolutely know it is a good thing because it is incomprehensible to us in the UK that people from the four nations of the UK couldn't move around the whole UK. And when it came to the EU, it is still a good thing, but should have managed the entry of the poorer nations in a better manner.

But having said that. The starry eyed liberals were not responsible for 40 years of anti-EU lies. Repeat the lies enough and they become accepted as truth. Evidence all around.

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45 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Ok, but does that mean you wish to end FOM within the UK?

No, but if there were still Welsh speakers who can't speak English, I wouldn't give them free English lessons and translators.

I don't have any problems with freedom of movement - providing I don't have to pay for it.

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Just now, iamnumerate said:

No, but if there were still Welsh speakers who can't speak English, I wouldn't give them free English lessons and translators.

I don't have any problems with freedom of movement - providing I don't have to pay for it.

Fair enough. Thanks.

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3 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Actually I think you can reasonably argue that people won't move around much when they're wealthy, happy, and free, or at least no less wealthier, happier and freer than wherever they could move to. Much, not none - some still will, and that's all well and good. The EU was (roughly) like that before it's very ill-conceived expansion. It worked well enough on the movement front then, the pressures for unbalanced movements weren't particularly high. 

An " ill conceived expansion" pushed through by the UK government. 

Ironically by the time we have actually left, that rough balance will be back in place.

Chart is from Migration watch which was a great source of up to date immigration statistics until recently, I wonder why they suddenly lost interest in providing the latest figures.chart.thumb.jpeg.cb517f7e8dbe88c3af231c4038c25d8c.jpeg

 

 

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1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

An " ill conceived expansion" pushed through by the UK government. 

Ironically by the time we have actually left, that rough balance will be back in place.

Chart is from Migration watch which was a great source of up to date immigration statistics until recently, I wonder why they suddenly lost interest in providing the latest figures.chart.thumb.jpeg.cb517f7e8dbe88c3af231c4038c25d8c.jpeg

 

 

So the trend is actually more Brits moving toward the EU and fewer EU moving to the UK. Interesting.

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3 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

An " ill conceived expansion" pushed through by the UK government. 

Ironically by the time we have actually left, that rough balance will be back in place.

Chart is from Migration watch which was a great source of up to date immigration statistics until recently, I wonder why they suddenly lost interest in providing the latest figures.chart.thumb.jpeg.cb517f7e8dbe88c3af231c4038c25d8c.jpeg

 

 

I am surprised by that.  I know people who came from Spain because of Brexit - they were worried that they would not have been able to later.  I am not saying it is wrong.

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On 08/07/2020 at 11:51, debtlessmanc said:

No i am not a believer in locking people up in their countries. But I am a believer in honestry about what can be achieved by policies such FoM. Italy is the country i know most about simply by talking to italians and reading the papers. As has been covered on here, southern italy in particular has widespread problem with corruption and organised crime. Mass migration from southern italy to avoid this problem has been going on since at least 1820 first to the americas (US, canada, argentina etc)  and now the rest of the EU.

Meanwhile the problem has not gone away by one iota. So simply allowing people to move will not change the reasons they are moving. This is the complete opposite that the happy clappy EU brigade will have you believe. They regularly state that all this movement will die down as everyone in the EU becomes wealthy happy and free. Well 200 years of this experiment has, if anything, proved the opposite. What can go wrong? well the recent collpse of the romanian health care system is an  indication. With FoM with no cultural changes insome countries will simply empty them of population and see a collaopse in services leaving the corrupt and cynical behid.

The only way the EU can change is by the forceably imposing stuff on states and regions. I am convinced it will do this in the future. But is that a reason to remain?

Theres a very good FT feature on the  ’Ndrangheta.

https://www.ft.com/content/8850581c-176e-4c5c-8b38-debb26b35c14

Online now.

I'd guess itll be in the weekend edition. Well worth the £5 or whatever.

The EU is not to blame directly. However indiscriminate splurging of development is making the situation much worse.

And cross border EU financial crime investigation is shitty at best.

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10 hours ago, spyguy said:

Theres a very good FT feature on the  ’Ndrangheta.

https://www.ft.com/content/8850581c-176e-4c5c-8b38-debb26b35c14

Online now.

I'd guess itll be in the weekend edition. Well worth the £5 or whatever.

The EU is not to blame directly. However indiscriminate splurging of development is making the situation much worse.

And cross border EU financial crime investigation is shitty at best.

Interesting- btw there was an update to the settlement status yestreday, the total is now 3.71M excluding Eire. Still a year to go

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/eu-settlement-scheme-statistics

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58 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Interesting- btw there was an update to the settlement status yestreday, the total is now 3.71M excluding Eire. Still a year to go

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/eu-settlement-scheme-statistics

Maybe they need to rephrase the question for people and the EU, who dont think theres that many EUers in the UK:

When do you expect the number of people registering to fall?

The continued rie is easy to explain.

Up until GE2019 most EUers I knew had put off registering. They were expecting he LibDem to surge and some sort of non Brexit achieved.

The sizeof the Boris' win killed that  dead.

Then there was Xmas, then 12th night, there was stuff to sort out then, when stuff as settling down, covid kicked in.

 

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31 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Maybe they need to rephrase the question for people and the EU, who dont think theres that many EUers in the UK:

When do you expect the number of people registering to fall?

The continued rie is easy to explain.

Up until GE2019 most EUers I knew had put off registering. They were expecting he LibDem to surge and some sort of non Brexit achieved.

The sizeof the Boris' win killed that  dead.

Then there was Xmas, then 12th night, there was stuff to sort out then, when stuff as settling down, covid kicked in.

 

Then there is the fact that around 600,000 EU migrants arrived in 2015/16, any of these wanting to remain will wait til the last minute to get their 5 years residency in

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Last (or this) week's Charlemagne column in TE touches on this.

It makes the same mistake as the EU, where youve got a political decision going very very wrong, wanting to double down on the mistake.

 

Let expats vote in the countries where they live

Taxation without representation is unfair

https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/07/04/let-expats-vote-in-the-countries-where-they-live

You can read the first section without a sub.

Its jaw droppingly wrong headed.

Is immigration without representation fair?

 

I wont copy the whole lot as Id doubt FUBAR would appreciate lawyers letters.

Ill copy n paste the odd bit I have issue with.

About 13m people live in a different eu country from the one they were born in, and are thus barred from the main democratic process in the country in which they live.

OK ... Lets take these numbers as official. And  work the 3.7m from above, even though I think its way too small.

Europe as in EU inc,. the UK, has a population of 750m. ~13m/ ~2% are living in a different country.

Yet of that 2%, 1/3 are living in the UK, a country of ~70m/~8% EU pop.. Whove just voted to leave.

Does anyone not see the problem and why it came about? Does noone ask why?

When the EU thought up FOM, they thought it would be mainly used by people travelling/working across adjacent countries, blurrign the border a bit.

A mate is from Rotterdam and works in Belgium. Its great for him as his area covers Benelux.

When expats do vote, they can make all the difference. Ms Sojka is one of more than 500,000 expat Poles who are registered to vote in the next round of the Polish presidential contest, on July 12th. The run-off between Andrzej Duda, the incumbent from the nationalist Law and Justice party, and Rafał Trzaskowski, the liberal mayor of Warsaw, is tight. Polls show both on 50%. Over 100,000 extra expat voters registered the day before the deadline. Among this group in the first round, Mr Trzaskowski had a convincing lead of 27 points (though lagging by 13 points among all voters). Nearly one in 12 Poles of working age lives elsewhere in the eu. It is a large caucus of voters, which could swing a very narrow vote.

Sooo .. do you want Euers living in other EU countries to be able to vote in that country and the one theyve left? Creating a kind of EU super voter?

Even with the expat Pols, the election is going to be close.  Deny the expats a vote and its back to the USSR. Ditto for the Balkan countries 

Surely if they are to be allowed to vote in the country they are currently residing in, they need to be banned from the old country? 

Last para:

Efforts to fix these flaws have fallen flat. National elections are a prerogative of national governments. Handing out votes to new arrivals from abroad falls low down the pecking order. Freedom of movement may be cherished, but that does not mean it is common: barely 4% of eu citizens live in a different country. A European Citizens’ Initiative—a petition to which the European Commission must respond—demanding universal suffrage is circling. It will be a topic of discussion during the upcoming Conference on the Future of Europe, where eu bosses will ponder big ideas. A simple, but politically tricky, option faces them: allow eu citizens to vote based on residency, rather than nationality. No taxation without representation is an old mantra, but a good one

Again, if the EU tracked the location of ex pat EUers it might be aware of the problem before it happened.

Surely an alternate, fairer system to the host countries tax payer would be to only allow expat EU to the benefits theyd have received at home? Or scrap all benefits and make all public services Pay as you use?

The writer makes the same mistakes gormless mistake as the UK and EU with crap numbers/stats.

At the start it states 13m, which is ~2% of EU population.

Then, at the end, says barely 4%, which is ~30m, a difference of 27m.

The problem is that you cannot have FOM until all EU countries taxation and benefits are the same.

How would Netherlands  feel if ~7m Southern Europeans piled in, registered and voted for the party that would forgive the Southern European states rather than have Mark Rutte saying 'Nee' on the current EU transfer funding?

Then they could all move to Germany when it votes and to the same there.

The writer cant see a problem. Can you?

‘Frugal four’ chief Mark Rutte leads opposition to EU recovery plan

Dutch PM wins plaudits at home with resistance to Berlin-backed pandemic grants

https://www.ft.com/content/8e30fd89-4958-491e-9f30-8c0b5f8b4cef

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Last (or this) week's Charlemagne column in TE touches on this.

It makes the same mistake as the EU, where youve got a political decision going very very wrong, wanting to double down on the mistake.

 

Let expats vote in the countries where they live

Taxation without representation is unfair

https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/07/04/let-expats-vote-in-the-countries-where-they-live

You can read the first section without a sub.

Its jaw droppingly wrong headed.

Is immigration without representation fair?

 

I wont copy the whole lot as Id doubt FUBAR would appreciate lawyers letters.

Ill copy n paste the odd bit I have issue with.

About 13m people live in a different eu country from the one they were born in, and are thus barred from the main democratic process in the country in which they live.

OK ... Lets take these numbers as official. And  work the 3.7m from above, even though I think its way too small.

Europe as in EU inc,. the UK, has a population of 750m. ~13m/ ~2% are living in a different country.

Yet of that 2%, 1/3 are living in the UK, a country of ~70m/~8% EU pop.. Whove just voted to leave.

Does anyone not see the problem and why it came about? Does noone ask why?

When the EU thought up FOM, they thought it would be mainly used by people travelling/working across adjacent countries, blurrign the border a bit.

A mate is from Rotterdam and works in Belgium. Its great for him as his area covers Benelux.

When expats do vote, they can make all the difference. Ms Sojka is one of more than 500,000 expat Poles who are registered to vote in the next round of the Polish presidential contest, on July 12th. The run-off between Andrzej Duda, the incumbent from the nationalist Law and Justice party, and Rafał Trzaskowski, the liberal mayor of Warsaw, is tight. Polls show both on 50%. Over 100,000 extra expat voters registered the day before the deadline. Among this group in the first round, Mr Trzaskowski had a convincing lead of 27 points (though lagging by 13 points among all voters). Nearly one in 12 Poles of working age lives elsewhere in the eu. It is a large caucus of voters, which could swing a very narrow vote.

Sooo .. do you want Euers living in other EU countries to be able to vote in that country and the one theyve left? Creating a kind of EU super voter?

Even with the expat Pols, the election is going to be close.  Deny the expats a vote and its back to the USSR. Ditto for the Balkan countries 

Surely if they are to be allowed to vote in the country they are currently residing in, they need to be banned from the old country? 

Last para:

Efforts to fix these flaws have fallen flat. National elections are a prerogative of national governments. Handing out votes to new arrivals from abroad falls low down the pecking order. Freedom of movement may be cherished, but that does not mean it is common: barely 4% of eu citizens live in a different country. A European Citizens’ Initiative—a petition to which the European Commission must respond—demanding universal suffrage is circling. It will be a topic of discussion during the upcoming Conference on the Future of Europe, where eu bosses will ponder big ideas. A simple, but politically tricky, option faces them: allow eu citizens to vote based on residency, rather than nationality. No taxation without representation is an old mantra, but a good one

Again, if the EU tracked the location of ex pat EUers it might be aware of the problem before it happened.

Surely an alternate, fairer system to the host countries tax payer would be to only allow expat EU to the benefits theyd have received at home? Or scrap all benefits and make all public services Pay as you use?

The writer makes the same mistakes gormless mistake as the UK and EU with crap numbers/stats.

At the start it states 13m, which is ~2% of EU population.

Then, at the end, says barely 4%, which is ~30m, a difference of 27m.

The problem is that you cannot have FOM until all EU countries taxation and benefits are the same.

How would Netherlands  feel if ~7m Southern Europeans piled in, registered and voted for the party that would forgive the Southern European states rather than have Mark Rutte saying 'Nee' on the current EU transfer funding?

Then they could all move to Germany when it votes and to the same there.

The writer cant see a problem. Can you?

‘Frugal four’ chief Mark Rutte leads opposition to EU recovery plan

Dutch PM wins plaudits at home with resistance to Berlin-backed pandemic grants

https://www.ft.com/content/8e30fd89-4958-491e-9f30-8c0b5f8b4cef

 

 

 

 

 

My wife is from South America and can vote for elections both here and there (she has dual citizenship).

She will never lose the ability to vote there, but of course if we were to go to live there then after 20 years we would not be able to vote here.

In some ways I think citizens should still be able to vote - after all Brits living in the middle east were affected by the Iraq war.

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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

My wife is from South America and can vote for elections both here and there (she has dual citizenship).

She will never lose the ability to vote there, but of course if we were to go to live there then after 20 years we would not be able to vote here.

In some ways I think citizens should still be able to vote - after all Brits living in the middle east were affected by the Iraq war.

It is probably germane at this point to point out that the majority of Turks living in Germany voted for a Fascist (Erdogan) in the Turkish elections. Not living in a country and thus suffering the results of a vote can lead to some crazy voting.

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2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

It is probably germane at this point to point out that the majority of Turks living in Germany voted for a Fascist (Erdogan) in the Turkish elections. Not living in a country and thus suffering the results of a vote can lead to some crazy voting.

True - I am not saying that either answer is perfect.

I would imagine Argentinians for example living in the UK would not vote for a candidate likely to start a new Falklands war.

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2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

It is probably germane at this point to point out that the majority of Turks living in Germany voted for a Fascist (Erdogan) in the Turkish elections. Not living in a country and thus suffering the results of a vote can lead to some crazy voting.

I have worked with a lot of polish people and the men are very very right wing they hate Black/Muslims/Jewish people 

Weird thing is they complained about brexit and that we are a racist country  but did not look in the mirror 

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3 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

My wife is from South America and can vote for elections both here and there (she has dual citizenship).

She will never lose the ability to vote there, but of course if we were to go to live there then after 20 years we would not be able to vote here.

In some ways I think citizens should still be able to vote - after all Brits living in the middle east were affected by the Iraq war.

If being a citizen grants you no special privileges in your country of nationality what is the point of citizenship?

Local elections is one thing - but surely citizens (or at least resident citizens) should decide national governments not residents. The issue of loyalty to another power is an issue!

I do find our situation whereby we allow Commonwealth nationals the vote in our election based on legislation from 1948 when almost none of those reciprocate for UK Nationals with residency there very odd.  Ireland is fine - because its reciprocal and we can vote in their general elections and vice versa. But its got to work both ways - or it shouldn't happen at all!

Edited by MARTINX9
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16 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

If being a citizen grants you no special privileges in your country of nationality what is the point of citizenship?

 

I suppose a Brit living abroad has the right to come back to the UK and help from the Government in case of crisis.

17 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

 

Local elections is one thing - but surely citizens (or at least resident citizens) should decide national governments not residents. The issue of loyalty to another power is an issue!

 

 

I agree.

 

 

18 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

 

I do find our situation whereby we allow Commonwealth nationals the vote in our election based on legislation from 1948 when almost none of those reciprocate for UK Nationals with residency there very odd.  Ireland is fine - because its reciprocal and we can vote in their general elections and vice versa. But its got to work both ways - or it shouldn't happen at all!

I agree with you, Actually we won't be able to vote in Ireland after Brexit.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/right_to_vote.html

Quote

If you are a British citizen living in Ireland after Brexit, you will no longer be entitled to vote in European elections.

 

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17 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I agree with you, Actually we won't be able to vote in Ireland after Brexit.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/right_to_vote.html

 

 

Brits resident in Ireland will still be able to vote in Irish general and local elections - which are the ones which count.

Its only EU parliament elections they won't be able to vote in as they aren't citizens of an EU member state - the EU decides that law not Ireland.

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25 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

 

Brits resident in Ireland will still be able to vote in Irish general and local elections - which are the ones which count.

Its only EU parliament elections they won't be able to vote in as they aren't citizens of an EU member state - the EU decides that law not Ireland.

Thanks for that.

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3 hours ago, shlomo said:

QcI have worked with a lot of polish people and the men are very very right wing they hate Black/Muslims/Jewish people 

Weird thing is they complained about brexit and that we are a racist country  but did not look in the mirror 

Its not weird, it is just in keeping with other migrants to the uk, they accept the bits they like. Wealth, progressive culture etc but they deny any connection from that to relaxing of their own prejudices. Eg many middle eastern students i teach love the west but if you suggest that back home would benefit from a bit of liberalisation they have apoplexy.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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10 hours ago, spyguy said:

About 13m people live in a different eu country from the one they were born in, and are thus barred from the main democratic process in the country in which they live.

OK ... Lets take these numbers as official. And  work the 3.7m from above, even though I think its way too small.

Europe as in EU inc,. the UK, has a population of 750m. ~13m/ ~2% are living in a different country.

Yet of that 2%, 1/3 are living in the UK, a country of ~70m/~8% EU pop.. Whove just voted to leave.

The EU+UK has a population of about 514m, not 750m.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population

What happened to your claim that the UK had received 80% of EU FOM? You seem to be down to 1/3rd now.

Spyguy and debtlessmanc pull up a chair at the grownups table and admit you were badly wrong on the immigration numbers challenge, over to you.

Edited by Dorkins
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5 hours ago, shlomo said:

I have worked with a lot of polish people and the men are very very right wing they hate Black/Muslims/Jewish people 

Weird thing is they complained about brexit and that we are a racist country  but did not look in the mirror 

That worries me too. But tbh many have of them have mover here to get away from that kind of thing. We live in hope..

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