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2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Those are forecasts.

The reality is different.

Italy.

atlas_S1HMV3l44.png

If you add up the net growth Italy has not grown since about 1988.

Trust me, it feels like that when I'm out n about chatting. And that's the North too.

 

20% of economic activity isn't counted in the stats.

Most Italians live in their own house - almost three out of 4 homes are owner-occupied. Everybody owns a car. The vast cultural heritage, the sun, the delicious food etc continue to attract countless tourists. Private sector debt/GDP is very modest.

Officially, no growth. Unofficially... la dolce vita!

 

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2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

I blame Blair mostly. The higher eduacation explosion is based on a national myth that getting a degree opens the door to a well paid executive life. So folk will pay willingly rather than get taxed unwillingly. It has never been that different. Be well motivated, work hard and be clever equals a better paid job. The idea the education techniques get better so that we are all smart and can all be hospital consultants = madness

Even before Blair it was obvious that too many people were studying, he really seemed to make everything bad worse and everything good bad.

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12 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

20% of economic activity isn't counted in the stats.

Most Italians live in their own house - almost three out of 4 homes are owner-occupied. Everybody owns a car. The vast cultural heritage, the sun, the delicious food etc continue to attract countless tourists. Private sector debt/GDP is very modest.

Officially, no growth. Unofficially... la dolce vita!

 

And a collapsing population- lowest Growth of population, highest growth in debt. What can go wrong?

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33 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

20% of economic activity isn't counted in the stats.

Most Italians live in their own house - almost three out of 4 homes are owner-occupied. Everybody owns a car. The vast cultural heritage, the sun, the delicious food etc continue to attract countless tourists. Private sector debt/GDP is very modest.

Officially, no growth. Unofficially... la dolce vita!

 

Italian debt, private n public, is beyond insane.

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2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Yes, because the lire was such a resounding success. 
To be clear, Italy and Greece were a ******ing joke before the EU. Total basket cases.

The UK too, a sick man of Europe before joining. It's heading that way again.  

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13 hours ago, prozac said:

Hatred and intolerance towards Gays is manufactured, people can be made to respect or hate, it just depends on what media they listen to.

Plato 

It is not just gays, it is for some anyone that they see as different to them, think differently, look differently, act differently.......they might see it as a threat to them, could change them, take something away from them.....do not understand them?........... generally people prefer the company of those they see are similar to themselves or see as helping them or agreeing with them?

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1 hour ago, winkie said:

It is not just gays, it is for some anyone that they see as different to them, think differently, look differently, act differently.......they might see it as a threat to them, could change them, take something away from them.....do not understand them?........... generally people prefer the company of those they see are similar to themselves or see as helping them or agreeing with them?

Religion may play a role here- after all it is pretty explicitly forbidden by the worlds major religions. (Parts of) The west has become unreligious hence relaxed attitudes to it.

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2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Religion may play a role here- after all it is pretty explicitly forbidden by the worlds major religions. (Parts of) The west has become unreligious hence relaxed attitudes to it.

Religions evolve over time, like all people, thoughts and beliefs......some places are lagging behind, more set in their old ways.......big old tanker to turn.?

In our modern materialistic world when people think they have less time to give to their spiritual side of life, whatever that means to each individual, it could be nature, it could be meditation, it could be God, a creator, or even music, arts, dance or giving to others.........others do not think they need anything other than mind, body or money?

 

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18 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Yes, because the lire was such a resounding success. 
To be clear, Italy and Greece were a ******ing joke before the EU. Total basket cases.

I would not disagree. So is France. And Spain now, it's gone ex growth and is no longer has Europes cheapest labour.

However ....

Why did Europe let them join? Then embedded them in the ECB?

Europe doesn't want these countries to fail. But also doesn't want to help or know how to fix them.

The issue is the same for both FOM and the EURO.

What is an unquestionable good idea for the small productive core of Germany, Nlands, Scandis, is insane when applied to the fringe.

Euro is a good thing for Germany n Nlands n Nordics. However France wants in. And if France is in, so Italy. And if Italy is in sos Spains, sos Greece.

FOM - fantastic idea for people living near borders to easily pop over to commute, shop whatever. Fantastic for people living in benelux. Really worked.

However, EE join, and millions pour into Western countries, mainly UK France n Germany. 

The problem with Europe is it doesn't fix stuff when things go very wrong.

Edited by spyguy
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13 hours ago, spyguy said:

Italian debt, private n public, is beyond insane.

BIS debt stats by country for Q2 2019:

Private sector debt/GDP (%).

Germany: 113.0

Italy: 110.0

UK: 163.1

Public sector debt/GDP (%), based on conversion to USD at market rates.

Germany: 67.8

Italy: 147.7

UK: 111.4

 

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5 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

BIS debt stats by country for Q2 2019:

Private sector debt/GDP (%).

Germany: 113.0

Italy: 110.0

UK: 163.1

Public sector debt/GDP (%), based on conversion to USD at market rates.

Germany: 67.8

Italy: 147.7

UK: 111.4

 

Dont trust the private debt figure.

https://www.populationpyramid.net/italy/2019/

Italies  working age population has been falling for 10 years.

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

The problem with Europe is it doesn't fix stuff when things go very wrong.

The EU is paralysed in connection with anything that involves movement of people, FOM or the refugee crisis (that is flaring up again at the Greek-turkish border). It cannot stop people forcibly and it cannot step in to stop the problems that are causing the movement in the first place.

Effectively the UK has been acting as emergency economic relief for the failures of the Eurozone to provide jobs for young people. Whats more what they have lost is not going back in my experience. I was talking to an italian female physics prof in the UK recently. She complained vociferously about Brexit, but when we got on to Italy the real complaints started, she was going to stay in the UK but if they did not work out it was elsewhere in the Anglosphere for her, USA, canada etc. She dismissed italy as corrupt, sexist and backward. What FOM has done for many countries is to take out the forward looking, anticorruption, non religious people and move them elsewhere and just the same way ireland stewed in this problem and backward infighting in the 60,70 and 80's as its brightest and best left so southern/eastern europe is destined to the same fate.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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On 29/02/2020 at 09:18, spyguy said:

Theres no disputing that Poland, along with other EE countries have been given huge amounts of cash.

What isnt clear if the money has made these places better or worse.

In the case of the Balkans countries, it appears that EU slush funds have turbo charged the mafias that have been runnign those countries since the UUSR -  and probably before.

 

 

 

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On 29/02/2020 at 09:18, spyguy said:

Theres no disputing that Poland, along with other EE countries have been given huge amounts of cash.

What isnt clear if the money has made these places better or worse.

In the case of the Balkans countries, it appears that EU slush funds have turbo charged the mafias that have been runnign those countries since the UUSR -  and probably before.

To me, it would seem to make sense for the mafia stay clear of tourists and try to look nice in front of them. If you work over there long enough you start hearing anecdotes about the exploits of men in suits.

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18 hours ago, spyguy said:

Theres no disputing that Poland, along with other EE countries have been given huge amounts of cash.

What isnt clear if the money has made these places better or worse.

GDP up 1000% since 1991. 
GDP per capital in certain regions now exceed EU average. Poland now officially classified as “developed”. Unemployment fallen from 20% to 4%.
 

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17 hours ago, Arpeggio said:

In the case of the Balkans countries, it appears that EU slush funds have turbo charged the mafias that have been runnign those countries since the UUSR -  and probably before.

By “countries” You are referring to Bulgaria, which is indeed  being run by the mafias.

other countries have a more insidious mafia, for example Iceland.

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5 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

By “countries” You are referring to Bulgaria, which is indeed  being run by the mafias.

other countries have a more insidious mafia, for example Iceland.

All the Balkan countries are mafia controlled, corrupt states.

 

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