Mass changes to UK immigration requirements

[Confusion of VIs]

 

Running the NHS payroll and pension takes a lot work and effort.

Maybe that needs scrapping?

A billing system is not hard. It would pay for itself and much more.

Id people who turn up. Check if they are entitled to free treatment or have the correct cover.

If not advise them of the payment options.

Try rocking up at a German hospital without insurance and see what happens.

The NHS will not turn away people who need treatment. Afterwards most are unable to pay and some of those who could won't or just disappear.  

Neither will hospitals in Germany, they are legally entitled to but liable if the patient suffers harm from being unable to access healthcare so they don't. As in the UK 99% have their treatment covered so this is not a real problem.

[Will!]

It would be inhumane to deny any immigrant healthcare, but making having valid health insurance a condition of being granted a visa to enter the UK would be straightforward enough.

The immigration health surcharge, for which the amount payable depends solely on the amount of leave to remain granted is clearly too crude and therefore unfair.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Will!

[spyguy]

 

The NHS will not turn away people who need treatment. Afterwards most are unable to pay and some of those who could won't or just disappear.  

Neither will hospitals in Germany, they are legally entitled to but liable if the patient suffers harm from being unable to access healthcare so they don't. As in the UK 99% have their treatment covered so this is not a real problem.

Theres emergency treatment i.e. getting run over by a car.

And theres elective/diagnosis/GP stuff.

All countries inc. the US offer emergency treatment.

Only the NHS lets non citizens roll up and get diagnosis and elective treatment.

 

 

[spyguy]

 

It needed ID cards and a local registry of residents. The English, in particular, have a visceral hatred of the concept of state ID cards. I have encountered UK people who were very pro EU and remain and actually did not believe me when i said that all the other EU states had ID cards and local registry. They actually thought i was making it up to slur the other members!

Again, its ClubMed pro Europeans who's only experience of Europe is in either  campsite/holiday bubble or the public sector bubble, protected by a gold plated unfunded pension (retired teacher living in France) or Pol/civil servant shuttling between Brussels.

The actual experience of Joe European living in Europe is one of lots of excess regulation - to the UK - and control.

I remember first going out with Mrs Spy when she went nuts when I dropped a bar drink reception. Getting a paper receipt  for a round of beers was wierd. Having to hold on to it incase we were pulled over by Police for check was nuts.

I understand why this was the case, mafia/tax n all. However the whole checks created a lot more scams.

The solution to scams n corruption is not more regulation which creates more scams n corruptions.

The contrast of coming to  the UK and getting a job purely on merit and ability compared to the overly stifling  process where getting job depends on your parents, who you vote for, who's major, which football team you support etcetcetc.

 

[spyguy]

 

So we come back to how out of touch the politicos were, remember Brown and his dismissal of the woman who asked why there where so many EE migrants- "Bigoted woman".

Democracy is what it is, the least worst form of govt. Hitler got elected because many sensible germans held their nose and voted for him rather than soviet style communism, turned out both were equally bad. Many British people were revolted by Farage and his brand of xenophobia and little englander. However the alternative to that kind of things is not open boarders and assimilation into some globalist's wet dream. The UK managed to avoid the idealogical nightmares of the 20th century. It may yet avoid those of the 21st.

 

The bigotted woman incident, let's call her by her proper name Mrs Duffy, random n off the cuff, gives you a pretty good what went wrong with Labour 97-

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bigotgate-gordon-brown-anniversary-gillian-duffy-transcript-full-read-1957274.html

GD: The three main things what I had drummed in when I was a child was education, health service and looking after people who are vulnerable. But there’s too many people now who aren’t vulnerable but they can claim, and people who are vulnerable can’t claim, can’t get it.

GB: But they shouldn’t be doing that, there is no life on the dole for people any more. If you are unemployed you’ve got to go back to work. It’s six months...

 

Blue collar Labour, which puts Labour in power, is simple - Labour government ought to provide a safety.

It's not there to allow people to live on bennies.

There is no life on dole/jsa. But it's pretty cushy on tax credits for 20 years.

Mrs D, working for the council, will see how much money walks out tge door to people whove never paid tax and dont look theyll ever will.

This is the 'uthinkable' that Field was tasked with resolving. The task that Browns clunking fists fists killed as he had visions of handing out TCs to a voter base that ould return him to government with a huge majority, carried down Whitehall on the shoulders of single mums, miners, car workers etc etc.

In the end he clung on and dkuled for a few days after GE 2010 as noone would support him with a Labour led coalition, seeing the disaster of UK finances n banking system and knowing full well Browns rep in HOC.

 

GD: You can’t say anything about the immigrants because you’re saying that you’re... but all these eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?

GB: A million people have come from Europe but a million British people have gone into Europe. You do know that there’s a lot of British people staying in Europe as well. Look, come back to what were your initial principles: helping people – that’s what we’re in the business of doing. A decent health service, that’s really important, and education. Now these are the things that we have tried to do. We’re going to maintain the schools so that we can make sure that people have that chance to get on. We’re going to maintain the health service so that...

 

Where indeed? And why??

And this was before the Balkan countries were legally in FOM.

Are we to believe that Brown, who was all over everything, thought the Brits/EU numbers balanced out at 1m each??

This was 2010. Is he a liar? An idiot? Or both??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219

Labour relied on research suggesting 13,000 migrants a year would arrive.

I take it its the same researchers who did the sums for tax credits. For light touch bank regulation too.?

In life, work, Politics, whatever mistakes happen. What separates success from failure is recognising and correcting those mistakes. Doubling down doesn't work, esp in politics and the finsec....

 

Even the slightly more engaged pro Europeans put the figure at 3m, which ought to cause concern back then.

3m was used during Brexit campaign.

The EU registration is now over 5m. That figure will shoot up, Brexit deal n detail n all.

Before EE FOM rough n ready figures pointed to just over 1m Brits, mainly retired/bar work living in France n Spain. Maybe a few in Italy. And 2m-3m EUers in the UK, mainly London n South, mainly doing a few years post Uni, improving their English. Or earning big bucks in City

This wasnt a problem, as limited access to bennies or having a high paying job didnt cause any friction. Compared to mainland Europe, the UK was pretty open to foreigners.

And then the combinational of TCv2 in 2005ish and EE FOM kicked off. Followed by the Euro crisis, where the Southern countries under 40s started pouring in too.

I'd guess Brits in Europe is well under 1m now. Fall of the £ and retirees dying off have seen to that.

Id guess Europeans in UK is 6m-8m. No ones sure. Not Ukgov. Not European governments. Not the EU.

*All* parties shoul have a grasp of where people are and what they are doing. It would have stopped surprises like Brexit, which wasnt a surprise to a lot if Brits outside of the pro EU bubbles.

 

 

[micawber]

[spyguy]

Saw this elsewhere.

In his mind, Brown saw himself as the towering modern Pol ever. Blair handily blotting his copybook with Dubya and Iraqv2.

However, history will show that the most successful, influential, nation changing politician since Roy Jenkins is Farage, who's left Thatcher for dust, the wheels coming off her career with Poll tax and the 90s recession.

 

[spyguy]

 

Worthy of its own thread.

The 2011 census showed a large number of towns n cities moving rapidly to Brits being a minority, London/SE esp.

It's going to be political dynamite.

Well done Labour for rubbing the UKs faces in it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249797/Labour-threw-open-doors-mass-migration-secret-plot-make-multicultural-UK.html

Bound to be a vote winner....

 

[iamnumerate]

 

Saw this elsewhere.

In his mind, Brown saw himself as the towering modern Pol ever. Blair handily blotting his copybook with Dubya and Iraqv2.

However, history will show that the most successful, influential, nation changing politician since Roy Jenkins is Farage, who's left Thatcher for dust, the wheels coming off her career with Poll tax and the 90s recession.

 

Brexit happened because of Blair not Farage.  Obviously Blair is very happy for Farage to take the credit

[iamnumerate]

 

The byzantine social security regulations have been a blind spot for many politicians.  Tony Blair famously appointed Frank Field as Minister of Welfare Reform in 1997 to "think the unthinkable" about social security and then effectively fired him when he did just that.

Although Frank Field didn't have anything to say specifically about immigration and social security it is, of course, another massive irony that if Tony Blair, the archetypical "Good European" had listened to Field then Brexit probably wouldn't have happened. 

Working Welfare- Frank Field.pdf 704.86 kB ·

I wonder if Blair realizes this.  He probably doesn't.

[spyguy]

 

Brexit happened because of Blair not Farage.  Obviously Blair is very happy for Farage to take the credit

Part of success in politics is pretending that stuff done by others is attributed to yourself....

[spyguy]

 

I wonder if Blair realizes this.  He probably doesn't.

Coronavirus: Vaccinate more people with one dose, urges Tony Blair

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55410349#:~:text=Ex-Prime Minister Tony Blair,doses to be fully effective.

Showing true leadership.....

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tell-us-if-leo-had-mmr-jab-6335121.html

 

[markyh]

 

Just as long as it doesn’t have any questions on ownership of Cryptocurrency on it, or I shall lie on that part. 

[MARTINX9]

It would be perfectly possible to introduce a national ID card in the UK to regulate access to the NHS and other services - it’s just about the branding. Call it an NHS public services card

Ireland had no national ID card in 2012 now nearly 80 per cent of people have the national public services card. If you don’t have one getting a passport, healthcare, welfare, a driving licence and more is more of a hassle - so people apply and comply.

Just put the name of our national religion worshipped without question in the title.

Edited January 1, 2021 by MARTINX9

[iamnumerate]

 

It would be perfectly possible to introduce a national ID card in the UK to regulate access to the NHS and other services - it’s just about the branding. Call it an NHS public services card

Ireland had no national ID card in 2012 now nearly 80 per cent of people have the national public services card. If you don’t have one getting a passport, healthcare, welfare, a driving licence and more is more of a hassle - so people apply and comply.

Just put the name of our national religion worshipped without question in the title.

No point though as any illegal could just claim asylum and get everything free.

[debtlessmanc]

 

No point though as any illegal could just claim asylum and get everything free.

The issue with asylum is that the success rate in the UK is so much higher, i think 60% get asylum, in eg spain it is only 5%.

Edited January 1, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[iamnumerate]

 

The issue with asylum is that the success rate in the UK is so much higher, i think 60% get asylum, in eg spain it is only 5%.

That is because we have no checks.  I know people from South America who have got it and go back every couple of years - but has anyone ever been prosecuted for claiming asylum falsely?  It is a zero risk game.

If you don't get it you might not be deported for years.

[MARTINX9]

 

Brexit happened because of Blair not Farage.  Obviously Blair is very happy for Farage to take the credit

Without Farage and the surge in UKIP support in 2013 and 2014 David Cameron would never have announced his intention to hold a referendum on the issue and included it in the 2015 election manifesto. Cameron assumed he had no chance of a majority so would never have to deliver on the promise - but to his surprise he won a majority. And his majority was in no small part due to the SNP - and the assumption Ed Milliband would 'be in their pocket'.

Blair sewed the seeds but without Farage Cameron would never have held the referendum. And without the surge in the SNP vote in Scotland Cameron would never have got his majority in 2015. And no majority and no referendum - no Brexit.

So Brexit is actually down to Nigel Farage and Nicola Sturgeon! Once they delivered Blair and Brown's legacy (tax credits!) gave leave its opportunity for victory. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by MARTINX9

[debtlessmanc]

 

That is because we have no checks.  I know people from South America who have got it and go back every couple of years - but has anyone ever been prosecuted for claiming asylum falsely?  It is a zero risk game.

If you don't get it you might not be deported for years.

Indeed. It is yet an another encouragement to break the law, there are not many reasons to obey it now.

Edited January 1, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[MARTINX9]

 

That is because we have no checks.  I know people from South America who have got it and go back every couple of years - but has anyone ever been prosecuted for claiming asylum falsely?  It is a zero risk game.

If you don't get it you might not be deported for years.

Most countries would of course flag that up with exit and entry controls. If you needed asylum from a country as your life was in danger how is it you are happy to go back and visit for a two week holiday.

[iamnumerate]

 

Most countries would of course flag that up with exit and entry controls. If you needed asylum from a country as your life was in danger how is it you are happy to go back and visit for a two week holiday.

Sadly the Guardian readers would call that racist (actually true when I suggested things like that in the past).

[sammersmith]

 

Most countries would of course flag that up with exit and entry controls. If you needed asylum from a country as your life was in danger how is it you are happy to go back and visit for a two week holiday.

The Albanian schizophrenia who killed a little girl in Bolton claimed asylum in the UK. Even though she was refused, how is it possible that someone from an EU candidate country and somewhere Ursula von der Leyen recently said 'belongs' in the EU, could even be considered for asylum at all given the EU believes Albania is safe enough to allow freedom of movement in the future?

Edited January 2, 2021 by sammersmith

[Big Orange]

 

The Albanian schizophrenia who killed a little girl in Bolton claimed asylum in the UK. Even though she was refused, how is it possible that someone from an EU candidate country and somewhere Ursula von der Leyen recently said 'belongs' in the EU, could even be considered for asylum at all given the EU believes Albania is safe enough to allow freedom of movement in the future?

That tragic, disgusting incident is going off topic and highlights failures in the UK's legal system, mental health care, and public safety (the Albanian woman kept on violently attacking her family, before she killed that random girl, and this somehow did not raise red flags).

We as a society now have too much tolerance towards actively dangerous people, even if the abolishment of the death penalty has justification (partially stemming from our on hindsight dangerous scaling back of our criminal prisons and psychiatric holding facilities).

Edited January 3, 2021 by Big Orange

[spyguy]

 

That tragic, disgusting incident is going off topic and highlights failures in the UK's legal system, mental health care, and public safety (the Albanian woman kept on violently attacking her family, before she killed that random girl, and this somehow did not raise red flags).

We as a society now have too much tolerance towards actively dangerous people, even if the abolishment of the death penalty has justification (partially stemming from our on hindsight dangerous scaling back of our criminal prisons and psychiatric holding facilities).

I think this tragic, disgusting incident is entirely *ON* topic.

I dont see how a lunatic Albanian migrant stabbing a young girl could be even more on topic.

 

 

 

[onlooker]

 

I think this tragic, disgusting incident is entirely *ON* topic.

I dont see how a lunatic Albanian migrant stabbing a young girl could be even more on topic.

 

 

 

Exactly. Why and how did she get into the UK. 'Why' is presumably because she realised she would have been locked up if she stayed in Albania, but in the UK she would be free. 'How' - maybe her family or the Albanian state got her out, so that she was no longer their responsibility nor threat.