Mass changes to UK immigration requirements

[zugzwang]

5 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I wouldn't want to abolish all benefits but I am not sure that without them we would be like Somalia.

We haven't always had benefits.

We haven't always done without child labour. It's called progress.

[slawek]

43 minutes ago, spyguy said:

I'm not being dishonest.

I'm trying to estimate the number of EUs living and accessing public services in the UK. Something the UK politicians, civil service and media have been refusing to question despite the obvious number of EUers in front of them, repeating the massive lie of  '3m EUers working in the UK'.

That was true, up til tax credits and EE ascension. It's been an outright lie since 2004ish.

At the moment, the closest thing to an official count is pointing to 5m,  3.6m + EU 500k finger in the air.

Not 3m. And a large number are on benefits, with family dependent using the free at point of use UK public services.

Now some EU countries I.e the ones at the top of that FT chart dont know or dont care where there citizens are. Mainly EE but also Italy and Spain, whove swept their failed under 45s economy under the UK economy and benefit system rug.

Covid has messed the count up. I still reckon when the UK gets close to a count itll show somewhere between 7m - 9m.

Some remainers - and im one - bang on about boris n Brexit lies. Nothing comes close to the '3m EUers working'

Sorry you are dishonest. 

You have been repeating for years your ridiculous claim that there are around 10m EU immigrant in the UK without providing any evidence, apart of anecdotes.  

 "And a large number are on benefits, with family dependent using the free at point of use UK public services."

This is a false statement. I've posted many times official government stats that EU migrants are not different than the rest of the UK population. As far as I remember they even receive less benefits per head and they are net contributors to the UK budget.

You can't definitely add numbers.

"At the moment, the closest thing to an official count is pointing to 5m,  3.6m + EU 500k finger in the air.   "

3.6+0.5 is 4.1 not 5.

Some points

1) Not all those with the settled status are still in the UK. The final number will overestimate the population of EU migrants. 

2) 3m of EU immigrants is a number from 2015.  Now it is close to 3.8m, so it is not far from your estimation of the final EU scheme figure around 4m. Not even close to your claimed for years 10m.

3) 40% of those registered with the schema have a pre-settled status. They have most likely arrived to the UK after 2015. 

[Locke]

1 hour ago, shlomo said:

That is a minority perspective, most people don’t want the UK to become Somalia

You should consider that your beloved government used your money to blow up brown people and create the conditions in Somalia.

49 minutes ago, spyguy said:

a system like the US with very limited benefits

People in the US take the ambulance to the hospital to get free dr's consultations on mild headaches, all at taxpayer expense. Thx Obama.

[Riedquat]

20 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

We haven't always done without child labour. It's called progress.

Progress used to mean things getting better, people who believe it does these days are deluded - labelling anything as "progress" now is admitting it's ludicrous.

Anyway a bit of child labour's not a bad thing. Good they're not going up chimneys aged 4, but it wouldn't be so good if they couldn't do a paper round aged 15.

[zugzwang]

Just now, Riedquat said:

Progress used to mean things getting better, people who believe it does these days are deluded - labelling anything as "progress" now is admitting it's ludicrous.

Anyway a bit of child labour's not a bad thing. Good they're not going up chimneys aged 4, but it wouldn't be so good if they couldn't do a paper round aged 15.

What's a paper round? I think progress may have consigned such things to history.

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Now some EU countries I.e the ones at the top of that FT chart dont know or dont care where there citizens are. Mainly EE but also Italy and Spain, whove swept their failed under 45s economy under the UK economy and benefit system rug.

 

This is the thing that troubles me most, It is the absolute antithesis of an international entity working for the common good. There is no real attempt to solve some states structural problems (e.g. corruption, nepotism, inefficency, discrimination against internal minorities), moreover the states themselves are glad to see the back of people who might kick up a fuss about it.

[debtlessmanc]

15 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

What's a paper round? I think progress may have consigned such things to history.

Or milkrounds? round here some under 15's steel milks and eggs from doorstops currently - would it not be better to pay them to deliver it?

[iamnumerate]

49 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

We haven't always done without child labour. It's called progress.

A bit of a non sequiteur I said that I don't want to abolish all benefits.

I just don't think that they are the only thing stopping us from becoming like Somalia.

 

[zugzwang]

2 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

A bit of a non sequiteur I said that I don't want to abolish all benefits.

I just don't think that they are the only thing stopping us from becoming like Somalia.

 

The UK isn't in any danger of becoming like Somalia. Argentina, perhaps. But not Somalia.

[dugsbody]

23 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

This is the thing that troubles me most, It is the absolute antithesis of an international entity working for the common good. There is no real attempt to solve some states structural problems (e.g. corruption, nepotism, inefficency, discrimination against internal minorities), moreover the states themselves are glad to see the back of people who might kick up a fuss about it.

You talk about this problem a lot.

Presumably you are in favour of stopping these people from moving around, so that they stay in local areas and fix the problems? If not, could you give a non-politician answer to what you do think please?

[Riedquat]

46 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

What's a paper round? I think progress may have consigned such things to history.

And to think "progress" once meant no longer having to slog all day in a field for half a mouldy turnip, or every waking hour in a in factory full of machines where you had to have constantly split-second timing to not get mangled. Now it's all about utterly trivial convenience.

[debtlessmanc]

53 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

You talk about this problem a lot.

Presumably you are in favour of stopping these people from moving around, so that they stay in local areas and fix the problems? If not, could you give a non-politician answer to what you do think please?

No i am not a believer in locking people up in their countries. But I am a believer in honestry about what can be achieved by policies such FoM. Italy is the country i know most about simply by talking to italians and reading the papers. As has been covered on here, southern italy in particular has widespread problem with corruption and organised crime. Mass migration from southern italy to avoid this problem has been going on since at least 1820 first to the americas (US, canada, argentina etc)  and now the rest of the EU.

Meanwhile the problem has not gone away by one iota. So simply allowing people to move will not change the reasons they are moving. This is the complete opposite that the happy clappy EU brigade will have you believe. They regularly state that all this movement will die down as everyone in the EU becomes wealthy happy and free. Well 200 years of this experiment has, if anything, proved the opposite. What can go wrong? well the recent collpse of the romanian health care system is an  indication. With FoM with no cultural changes insome countries will simply empty them of population and see a collaopse in services leaving the corrupt and cynical behid.

The only way the EU can change is by the forceably imposing stuff on states and regions. I am convinced it will do this in the future. But is that a reason to remain?

Edited July 8, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[dugsbody]

29 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Meanwhile the problem has not gone away by one iota. So simply allowing people to move will not change the reasons they are moving. This is the complete opposite that the happy clappy EU brigade will have you believe.

If you can point to anyone who has said that FOM will solve Italy's corruption problems, I will apologise. But I suspect this is just a fake argument you've invented in your head and now believe it to be true. Perhaps you should revisit this belief.

30 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

They regularly state that all this movement will die down as everyone in the EU becomes wealthy happy and free.

No, what is stated is that as states equalise, there will be less incentive. Many people don't actually want to leave their home you know. Evidence by how many actually stay put vs moving around. 

32 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Well 200 years of this experiment has, if anything, proved the opposite. What can go wrong? well the recent collpse of the romanian health care system is an  indication. With FoM with no cultural changes insome countries will simply empty them of population and see a collaopse in services leaving the corrupt and cynical behid.

200 years of experiment and Italy is completely devoid of Italians? And it has been on a downward trend of living standards for 200 years? Come on, you start pretending to be sensible then you lurch into this hyperbole.

As for Romania, there are several points here. They have a very low funding for their public health service as a percent of GDP vs the rest of Europe. So that is where you should start your argument. But you don't mention this.

I think people need to agree that folks moving around does remove talent from certain regions. This has happened across the developed world in towns and locations that no longer have their industrial base, such as deprived regions like the North of England. But you know what happens when we talk about that? We talk about government funding, initiatives for regeneration, acknowledgement of global movement of industries, etc, etc. We don't just resort to blaming the EU and freedom of movement. You seem completely unwilling to discuss the holistic picture and instead seem intent on zoning in continuously on freedom of movement. To me, along with many other of your comments, it paints the picture of someone who dislikes immigration (despite your other attempts to say otherwise) to the UK and you're willing to use Romania as a tool in your argument.

[Riedquat]

39 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Meanwhile the problem has not gone away by one iota. So simply allowing people to move will not change the reasons they are moving. This is the complete opposite that the happy clappy EU brigade will have you believe. They regularly state that all this movement will die down as everyone in the EU becomes wealthy happy and free. Well 200 years of this experiment has, if anything, proved the opposite. What can go wrong? well the recent collpse of the romanian health care system is an  indication. With FoM with no cultural changes insome countries will simply empty them of population and see a collaopse in services leaving the corrupt and cynical behid.

Actually I think you can reasonably argue that people won't move around much when they're wealthy, happy, and free, or at least no less wealthier, happier and freer than wherever they could move to. Much, not none - some still will, and that's all well and good. The EU was (roughly) like that before it's very ill-conceived expansion. It worked well enough on the movement front then, the pressures for unbalanced movements weren't particularly high.

What doesn't work, and perhaps this is what you were getting at, is the idea that you can create the means for movement and then equality will happen (and equality without dragging the better off side down). Then one country ends up with the downsides of having to deal with a lot more people, another has to deal with the downsides of a lot of the people it would need to improve its situation upping and moving - they might send some money back but what it needs is them to start generating that wealth at home, and a few people rubbing their hands with glee at being able to exploit this, and a bunch of pretty naive fools cheering it on too.

Helping a country reach the state where it makes sense to open up is a good thing. The other way around, damaging all round.

[iamnumerate]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

If you can point to anyone who has said that FOM will solve Italy's corruption problems, I will apologise. But I suspect this is just a fake argument you've invented in your head and now believe it to be true. Perhaps you should revisit this belief.

 

I believe that FOM has enabled Southern Europe to ignore the problems of mass unemployment. I know people from Spain and I think it is a shame that they had to leave their home country because of mass unemployment.

[dugsbody]

30 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I believe that FOM has enabled Southern Europe to ignore the problems of mass unemployment. I know people from Spain and I think it is a shame that they had to leave their home country because of mass unemployment.

I believe that FOM in the UK has enabled the UK to ignore the problems of mass unemployment in the North. I know people from the North of England and I think it is a shame that they had to leave their home county because of mass unemployment.

Edited July 8, 2020 by dugsbody

[debtlessmanc]

3 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I believe that FOM in the UK has enabled the UK to ignore the problems of mass unemployment in the North. I know people from the North of England and I think it is a shame that they had to leave their home county because of mass unemployment.

I believe that FOM in the UK has enabled the UK to ignore the problems of mass unemployment in the North. I know people from the North of England and I think it is a shame that they had to leave their home county because of mass unemployment.

now they are London they can camp outside parliement and pester the UK govt into changing the policies that lead to the problem

[iamnumerate]

9 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I believe that FOM in the UK has enabled the UK to ignore the problems of mass unemployment in the North. I know people from the North of England and I think it is a shame that they had to leave their home county because of mass unemployment.

Probably true.  Although I think you will find the North of England has lower youth unemployment than Southern Europe.

 

[debtlessmanc]

9 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Probably true.  Although I think you will find the North of England has lower youth unemployment than Southern Europe.

 

Do not worry the spanish politicians are well qualified to work it out...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/spanish-politicians-urged-to-resign-over-fake-degree-claims

 

[debtlessmanc]

2 hours ago, dugsbody said:

If you can point to anyone who has said that FOM will solve Italy's corruption problems, I will apologise. But I suspect this is just a fake argument you've invented in your head and now believe it to be true. Perhaps you should revisit this belief.

 

read this EU report,

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2016/09/09/how-corruption-is-driving-eastern-europe-s-brain-drain-pub-64545

first page
"The migration of talented people is not only linked to the lack of opportunity or to the lure of better living conditions in the Western member states of the E.U. It is also driven by the pervasive corruption perpetuated by the political elites and the local oligarchs, especially in the Western Balkan and South Eastern countries. Those who don’t want to become part of this institutional network of corruption escape.But because they flee, they give the corrupt elites a life-line. The last thing these elites want is a vibrant, educated, civil society that will demand change, transparency, accountability and above all a vibrant democracy"

[dugsbody]

18 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

read this EU report,

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2016/09/09/how-corruption-is-driving-eastern-europe-s-brain-drain-pub-64545

first page
"The migration of talented people is not only linked to the lack of opportunity or to the lure of better living conditions in the Western member states of the E.U. It is also driven by the pervasive corruption perpetuated by the political elites and the local oligarchs, especially in the Western Balkan and South Eastern countries. Those who don’t want to become part of this institutional network of corruption escape.But because they flee, they give the corrupt elites a life-line. The last thing these elites want is a vibrant, educated, civil society that will demand change, transparency, accountability and above all a vibrant democracy"

Where does it say FOM will solve Italy's corruption problems?

(And btw, I did mean on this forum, but if you want to take it wider, that is fine)

[dugsbody]

46 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Probably true.  Although I think you will find the North of England has lower youth unemployment than Southern Europe.

 

Ok, but does that mean you wish to end FOM within the UK?

[debtlessmanc]

6 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Where does it say FOM will solve Italy's corruption problems?

(And btw, I did mean on this forum, but if you want to take it wider, that is fine)

I already predicated the argument by pointing out that Italy was the one i had discussed with many italians andf that is why i talk about it. This report picks on the south east of the EU as particularly bad. I am not sure why what they say about there would not apply to southern Italy. But if you can give me reasons i am all ears.

 

btw those countries are getting worse since joining the EU, how does the EU respond? it admits Albania the only country that is worse in that region

 https://balkaninsight.com/2019/01/29/balkan-countries-perceived-as-corrupted-report-01-28-2019/

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[dugsbody]

2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

I already predicated the argument by pointing out that Italy was the one i had discussed with many italians andf that is why i talk about it. This report picks on the south east of the EU as particularly bad. I am not sure why what they say about there would not apply to southern Italy. But if you can give me reasons i am all ears.

Perhaps you could respond to my actual simple, in English request. Where has anyone (and I meant on this forum but you've gone searching wider) said that "FOM will solve <insert state of your choice here>'s corruption problems".

I think you're another sham. You pretend to be agnostic about FOM but I think you deeply really just want to end it, and that is why you voted for brexit.

[debtlessmanc]

6 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Perhaps you could respond to my actual simple, in English request. Where has anyone (and I meant on this forum but you've gone searching wider) said that "FOM will solve <insert state of your choice here>'s corruption problems".

I think you're another sham. You pretend to be agnostic about FOM but I think you deeply really just want to end it, and that is why you voted for brexit.

i Presume you think that because i bring up inconvenient facts? tbh I do not understand why the EU expanded in this way, it has built in the seeds of its own destruction is the best way to put it. The UK should have used all the mechanisms available to put a break on migration from these states. It could still do it if it really wanted. eg Make everyone talk an advanced english test to get a job (as almost all the other states do in their native languages). It is the starry eyed idealism of the UK liberal that lead to the vote going the way it did. I personally would far rather be in something akin to the EEC or a reduced EU than the shit show of Brexit. It is what it is though.

Edited July 8, 2020 by debtlessmanc