debtlessmanc Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, zugzwang said: UK workers are neither lazy or feckless. They work some of the longest hours in the developed world for very little reward. They are, however, finite in number. The UK economy has been operating at full capacity for many years, generating an excess of demand that would have been impossible to satisfy without immigration. Hence the record employment rates since 2015 and simultaneously a record number of job vacancies. The world has a demand for english speaking jobs/people. Chinese people can study at university in sweden for next to nothing or in the uk- the real deal english speaking wise, for £20-30k a year. They choose the latter. 57 out of 377 world leaders have a degree from a uk university. That is enormous soft power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyh Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 hours ago, winkie said: One thing that has not be discussed or mentioned is these people with the skills we require from throughout the world if they get their 70 points and meet the income....what about their families, wife and kids or parents? Surely anyone coming to live and work who has a family will want to bring them with them, will their salary support?? No ****** em. Send money home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: The world has a demand for english speaking jobs/people. Chinese people can study at university in sweden for next to nothing or in the uk- the real deal english speaking wise, for £20-30k a year. They choose the latter. 57 out of 377 world leaders have a degree from a uk university. That is enormous soft power There are so many aps and internet based ways of learning a language....start your kids at an early age could be better for them in the future than some degrees......many degrees the wrong subjects and/or wrong university are a waste of both time and money..... technology will see many new ways of learning what we need to learn as times change and new skills are required.? Edited February 19, 2020 by winkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, jonb2 said: DM. The truth is that Brexit has allowed a lot of people out of the woodwork. It's given them an ever-louder voice. Something we should be worried about. Clearly the current government doesn't give a toss about. In fact it suits their divide and rule tactics. With their choice of SPADs and cosying up to fascists like Orban. I agree that the current govt does not give a toss about these things. It just has its eyes on different issues. My son is in a mixed race relationship, a french girl of cambodian heritage. They have never had a problem here (they tell me) and she wants to move here this year when she finishes her degree in Paris. So perhaps this is relevant to her. She speakS english with an almost perfect mid atlantic accent and still views the uk as her natural home in europe. It is a great complement no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, zugzwang said: I'm just describing the economy as it's currently organised, Riedquat. I accept that it's utterly dysfunctional. A national tragedy. Fair enough, I guess "don't shoot the messenger" is appropriate here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 3 hours ago, jonb2 said: Assault is as easy as murder to prove and much more common. I bet she has had more delays due to Tory terrorism than Islamic. ? Not really some people fake racially motivated assaults. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/arts/television/jussie-smollett-indicted-chicago.html My wife nor anyone I know has never ever had such a bad journey as she did on 7/7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, zugzwang said: UK workers are neither lazy or feckless. They work some of the longest hours in the developed world for very little reward. They are, however, finite in number. The UK economy has been operating at full capacity for many years, generating an excess of demand that would have been impossible to satisfy without immigration. Hence the record employment rates since 2015 and simultaneously a record number of job vacancies. How many more would you suggest given we have a housing and homelessness crisis let alone all the poor air quality due to the overcrowding on our roads and transport or the pressure on infrastructure? 10 million, 20 million? All to worship on the alter of ever rising GDP while millions live in slums or on the street to serve the needs of the middle classes? Let’s solve poverty by importing more poverty and make the lives of the poor even tougher in terms of competing for housing and school places and services? And yes many of those worst affected will be recent migrants and BAME communities who lack the safety net or haven’t been able to earn enough to buy a home (as you need to earn a near £100k a year salary just to buy a one bed flat in large parts of inner London now!) Just to avoid the well off middle classes having to clean their own homes or care for their own elderly parents. Too posh to wash their elderly mum or clean their frail dad after he goes to the loo - cos that’s what we have EU migrants for? As an odd analogy the UK managed to administer one third of the planet with a population of 40 million for a century of more. Yet now a population of 70 million isn’t enough even to look after ourselves? Is there any limit or control some on here would impose? Edited February 19, 2020 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, winkie said: There are so many aps and internet based ways of learning a language....start your kids at an early age could be better for them in the future than some degrees......many degrees the wrong subjects and/or wrong university are a waste of both time and money..... technology will see many new ways of learning what we need to learn as times change and new skills are required.? The parents do not see it that way- they want them to learn mandarin english from the horses mouth- believe me the uk has really got it down pat as far as that is concerned. I interact with the students day in day out. Their admiration of the uk is deep and sincere. You might say misplaced but it is what it is. Edited February 19, 2020 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said: How many more would you suggest given we have a housing and homelessness crisis let alone all the poor air quality due to the overcrowding on our roads and transport or the pressure on infrastructure? 10 million, 20 million? All to worship on the alter of ever rising GDP while millions live in slums or on the street to serve the needs of the middle classes? Let’s solve poverty by importing more poverty and make the lives of the poor even tougher in terms of competing for housing and school places and services? And yes many of those worst affected will be recent migrants and BAME communities who lack the safety net or haven’t been able to earn enough to buy a home (as you need to earn a near £100k a year salary just to buy a one bed flat in large parts of inner London now!) Just to avoid the well off middle classes having to clean their own homes or care for their own elderly parents. Too posh to wash their elderly mum or clean their frail dad after he goes to the loo - cos that’s what we have EU migrants for? As an odd analogy the UK managed to administer one third of the planet with a population of 40 million for a century of more. Yet now a population of 70 million isn’t enough even to look after ourselves? Is there any limit or control some on here would impose? Administered 1/3 of the planet for 200 years more like. We look after ourselves very well actually in terms of corruption law and order etc. Lowest corruption in the EU by most measures. Only produce 60% of our food yet eat like kings etc. Most other countries hate us simply because we are so successfull in these regards- it is “not fair” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugger BTL Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, markyh said: No ****** em. Send money home. The difficulty with this is that rather than doing as you suggest, people with in demand skills and choices can choose not to be *****d and send money home, but instead go somewhere they can bring their spouse and children. Your approach works when we're the best or only option someone has, not so much otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 8 hours ago, slawek said: Should we get rid of them instead? Surprising or not, i know a lit of europeans, mrs spy being both italian n a teacher. Spanish waiter? Nope. Lots of 30+ student. I cant think of any job that has a notable number of spanish. There are a *lot* of south americans whove soanush passport who then vome to uk to work in liw paid tax credit subed jobs in london. Polish carer? Nope. I know one Pole whos on good money. The rest are in low paid parttime work. The local sklep seems to have a never ending number of workers on TCs. Romanian nurse. Nope. Portugese nurse yes. German farmer? Really? Can you point me me to one? Portugese teacher. None that i know of. As mentioned , lots of portguese nurses. Tge blokes dont seem to do much. Greek engineer? Can you point me to one? Swedish driver?? Lorry? Train? I know two swedes in the local are^a. Ines a phsio, tge other lives off hubbys money. Professionally, i know a few swede software. Hes missed the latvuan n lithunain criminals. And balkan gangs n dealers. Before teaching the world to sing, he needs to have a look at uk crim pop https://fullfact.org/crime/eu-prisoners/ Conviction of EErs is very low as the crimes are mainly in the communities. Theres several hundred EE bodies stuffed in hedges n woods around the uk. Tgey keep cropping up everynow n then, when rover goes rumnaging. 15 years too late ukgov is starting to monitor euers by the settlement application. https://www.gov.uk/entering-staying-uk/settlement Its up to 3m, the umber of euers meant to be living in the uk. However none of mrs spys ee families have registered. Watch as the number goes well over 5m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 4 hours ago, winkie said: Zombie businesses living from a lifeline of cheap credit and low paid workers.....but the big boys would love to kill the smaller business more business for them.....always consequences from actions......like there will be negative consequences from any new policies including this.? There are no low paid workers in the UK. The earned low paid us topped up to middle class incomes by in work benefits. Thats tge problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said: I agree that the current govt does not give a toss about these things. It just has its eyes on different issues. My son is in a mixed race relationship, a french girl of cambodian heritage. They have never had a problem here (they tell me) and she wants to move here this year when she finishes her degree in Paris. So perhaps this is relevant to her. She speakS english with an almost perfect mid atlantic accent and still views the uk as her natural home in europe. It is a great complement no? See if she still loves the UK after 10 years of being relentlessly kicked in the teeth by an economy designed to transfer wealth from younger workers to older landowners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 4 hours ago, jonb2 said: I said the UK is more racist since the referendum. It is. As perceived by the rest of the world. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/26/a-sharp-spike-in-racist-incidents-reported-after-the-brexit-vote/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48692863https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/brexit-day-nigel-farage-leavers-true-colours-1-6504412https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-more-racist-after-brexit-qb7hd7xl7https://www.opinium.co.uk/racism-rising-since-brexit-vote/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0214-5https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/projects/uk-international-challenges-16-does-brexit-trigger-racism-experiment-among-british-and-europeans-residents-ukhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/315966240_Racial_violence_and_the_Brexit_statehttps://qz.com/1582231/brexit-is-killing-off-one-of-the-most-enduring-british-stereotypes/https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3011070/racism-rise-uk-brexit-vote-study-revealshttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/28/subjected-racism-since-brexit-rest-career-altogether-former/https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/uk-decade-brexit-200131052333187.htmlhttps://time.com/5749636/marginalized-communities-uk-election-results/ Do you honestly think remainers suddenly got a licence to be more racist on 23rd June 2016? That they've been waiting for 40 years to come out the closet of hate? To quote a Belgian work mate of Congolese origin - If you think the Uk is racist you should try going France, belgium, germany or any country east of berlin. Or worst - china. Sure, there are some ravists in tge uk but they are few n far between. And its more complex tgan race/colour. The guy guy went yo south africa once. Never again, after some black SAs in a bar discovered he was congolese. Almost killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 4 hours ago, MARTINX9 said: Yes - we need immigrants to do the jobs which are beneath us? How insulting and frankly racist! How on earth did we cope pre 2004? Or you make it worth the while of UK nationals by paying wages high enough so they can afford to pay their housing and other living costs and have more to spare - and thus be much better off working than on welfare. It’s tiring seeing so many on the supposedly liberal left implying the UK working classes are all lazy and feckless. Give em a hand up rather than a hand out and who knows they might surprise you! What, like hand washing cars, a job that was automated before TCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dorkins said: See if she still loves the UK after 10 years of being relentlessly kicked in the teeth by an economy designed to transfer wealth from younger workers to older landowners. The uk system is about making money, working hard to do that and having opportunities to do it. france has its demons too you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 4 hours ago, MARTINX9 said: Yes - we need immigrants to do the jobs which are beneath us? How insulting and frankly racist! How on earth did we cope pre 2004? Or you make it worth the while of UK nationals by paying wages high enough so they can afford to pay their housing and other living costs and have more to spare - and thus be much better off working than on welfare. It’s tiring seeing so many on the supposedly liberal left implying the UK working classes are all lazy and feckless. Give em a hand up rather than a hand out and who knows they might surprise you! The UK working class (as in working n tax paying) not only supports several million fellow national dokeys but also orops up a few million EEers in the UK and a similar number back in Eastern eurooe by transfer of TCs. There is nothing lazy or unproductive about UK workers. You really need to see the productivity of the rest of Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, spyguy said: Surprising or not, i know a lit of europeans, mrs spy being both italian n a teacher. Spanish waiter? Nope. Lots of 30+ student. I cant think of any job that has a notable number of spanish. There are a *lot* of south americans whove soanush passport who then vome to uk to work in liw paid tax credit subed jobs in london. Polish carer? Nope. I know one Pole whos on good money. The rest are in low paid parttime work. The local sklep seems to have a never ending number of workers on TCs. Romanian nurse. Nope. Portugese nurse yes. German farmer? Really? Can you point me me to one? Portugese teacher. None that i know of. As mentioned , lots of portguese nurses. Tge blokes dont seem to do much. Greek engineer? Can you point me to one? Swedish driver?? Lorry? Train? I know two swedes in the local are^a. Ines a phsio, tge other lives off hubbys money. Professionally, i know a few swede software. Hes missed the latvuan n lithunain criminals. And balkan gangs n dealers. Before teaching the world to sing, he needs to have a look at uk crim pop https://fullfact.org/crime/eu-prisoners/ Conviction of EErs is very low as the crimes are mainly in the communities. Theres several hundred EE bodies stuffed in hedges n woods around the uk. Tgey keep cropping up everynow n then, when rover goes rumnaging. 15 years too late ukgov is starting to monitor euers by the settlement application. https://www.gov.uk/entering-staying-uk/settlement Its up to 3m, the umber of euers meant to be living in the uk. However none of mrs spys ee families have registered. Watch as the number goes well over 5m. You shouldn't take this tweet so literally. Examples you gave are just your personal experience, not representative of the real situation. For an example you claim that there are no Romanian nurses it is completely wrong, see the table below. People from the EU works in all kind of jobs, you can't make any claims based on their nationalities. My accountant is Polish, a woman running nursery was Polish, my GP is German. People working in the City (traders, sales, quants, IT) are from all over the EU, German, Ireland, French, Italy, Poland, Spain, Netherlands, Austria. Your claim that there is 5-10mln EUs in the UK is simply crazy. http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7783/CBP-7783.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: The uk system is about making money, working hard to do that and having opportunities to do it. france has its demons too you know The UK system is about extracting rent, which is why if you are in the top few percent by ability and really sacrifice and bust a gut you might just about be able to achieve the lifestyle of a postman in the 1980s, albeit with a lot more stress than he would have had. Edited February 19, 2020 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dorkins said: The UK system is about extracting rent, which is why if you are in the top few percent by ability and really sacrifice and bust a gut you might just about be able to achieve the lifestyle of a postman in the 1980s. Depends were you live mate, my son and his girlfriend could buy a terraced house where he lives for £100k and commute to manchester in 20mins- a city they both love Edited February 19, 2020 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 6 hours ago, debtlessmanc said: If you want a good laugh look at the comments underneath an article about this in the french press https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/le-gouvernement-britannique-devoile-son-systeme-d-immigration-post-brexit-20200218 i would say roughly 2/3rds are along the lines of "why can't France do this?" Ne vous inquiétez pas pour tous les nuls et autres analphabètes recalés...Ils viendront chez nous ! Ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: Depends were you live mate, my son and his girlfrienD could buy a terraced house where he lives for £100k and commute to manchester in 20mins- a city they both love 4x average wages to live in a well-below-average house is not a good deal. I can understand why you would want to be optimistic on behalf of your son, but the institutions which ground up the 20 year wide cohort above him are still in situ and still want feeding. Edited February 19, 2020 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 hours ago, winkie said: Take care workers, those that travel in their own cars from house to house getting people up, washing them, seeing that they have a meal, putting them to bed......help keeping the elderly and frail people living in their homes for longer......often these compassionate caring people have 20mins to do the job in each home and are sometimes not paid for time traveling between jobs.... Who benefits from this care......older people, many who might have voted Brexit, do you think they will be prepared to pay these careers a decent living wage, these workers have families and bills to pay aswell.....about time they should be valued for the work they do in remuneration not just thanks.? My sister in law does this as a cancer respite nurse. Out all evening, not paid travelling time, sometimes paid as little as 45 minutes for an evenings work. Under a lot of pressure to get from house to house in a set time. My wife used to work with adults with disabilities. She had to stay overnight in their homes one night a week, sleeping in a 'staff' bedroom but there for emergencies, and she was paid 25 quid a night for that. I see there is a supreme court case on this week arguing that 'on site night staff' like that should be paid the Minimum Wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, MARTINX9 said: How many more would you suggest given we have a housing and homelessness crisis let alone all the poor air quality due to the overcrowding on our roads and transport or the pressure on infrastructure? 10 million, 20 million? All to worship on the alter of ever rising GDP while millions live in slums or on the street to serve the needs of the middle classes? Let’s solve poverty by importing more poverty and make the lives of the poor even tougher in terms of competing for housing and school places and services? And yes many of those worst affected will be recent migrants and BAME communities who lack the safety net or haven’t been able to earn enough to buy a home (as you need to earn a near £100k a year salary just to buy a one bed flat in large parts of inner London now!) Just to avoid the well off middle classes having to clean their own homes or care for their own elderly parents. Too posh to wash their elderly mum or clean their frail dad after he goes to the loo - cos that’s what we have EU migrants for? As an odd analogy the UK managed to administer one third of the planet with a population of 40 million for a century of more. Yet now a population of 70 million isn’t enough even to look after ourselves? Is there any limit or control some on here would impose? I'm not responsible the terminal failure of the UK economy. That's on your bankster-frotting Tory chums: Doris, Smoggy, Cummings et al. Forty years of privatisation, deregulation and globalisation in pursuit of a mathematised ideology masquerading as science. Net migration could be reduced to next-to-nothing now if these contemptible deceivers were serious about change. But of course, they're not. Which is why the Ugandan Patel wouldn't actually say what the new net migration target is when questioned repeatedly by Kay Burley. 300K... 400K... 500K.. ? Be sure to let us know when you find out. Edited February 19, 2020 by zugzwang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 'Doors will close for Brits in EU': Why the UK's post-Brexit immigration plan has sparked alarm British in Europe's Fiona Godfrey added: "This will have repercussions for UK nationals already living in the EU. We are still waiting for some countries to decide how they will register us under the Withdrawal Agreement and this probably won’t help persuade them to choose the declaratory option rather than the re-registration option. "And, of course, it’s not going to help Brits who want or need to leave their host country to find work elsewhere in the EU if the member states reciprocate, which we expect them to do. "All in all, it’s more British exceptionalism, insularity and delusion. It would be embarrassing were it not for the fact that so many UK lives and livelihoods in the EU, and EU lives and livelihoods in the UK are dependent on the UK government acting in good faith and treating EU nationals living there as assets to the country rather than units of “cheap labour.” The hostile environment has to stop." https://www.thelocal.com/20200219/this-will-mean-nothing-good-for-brits-in-europe-uks-post-brexit-immigration-system-sparks-alarm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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