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mrpleasant

I feel like a Jew in Weimar Germany

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1 hour ago, GreenDevil said:

Boomers got lucky.  Life was hard. Its still hard. The only difference with today is the the young got ******ed over by the politicians and the bankers, Zirp and QE to infinity. Not the boomers.

That's spot on.

All generations have had to work hard in various ways, it's just that the boomers have - generally - lucked out by getting richer rewards for it than their parents and their children. 

Personally all I'd like to see is a bit more wider acknowledgement of that (hat tip to those in the boomer generation on here who do acknowledge it) and a change in government policy to correct the balance (i.e. allow young people a fighting chance of owning a house, and being able to retire in comfort).

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I've got bad news and good news. 

The bad news is that the elderly have most of the houses and assets. 

The good news is that each eldery couple only have one or two children on average. If you marry, the chances are that at least you or your spouse will inherit a property. And if your spouse is an only child, winner take all! 

On average, that is. 

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1 hour ago, Odakyu-sen said:

I've got bad news and good news. 

The bad news is that the elderly have most of the houses and assets. 

The good news is that each eldery couple only have one or two children on average. If you marry, the chances are that at least you or your spouse will inherit a property. And if your spouse is an only child, winner take all! 

On average, that is. 

Back to medieval times basically, born into wealth and/or marry well = fine, otherwise life of struggle. Unlike the OP who grew up poor but through decent wages and genuinely affordable housing ended up fine, as did most of his generation.

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2 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Back to medieval times basically, born into wealth and/or marry well = fine, otherwise life of struggle. Unlike the OP who grew up poor but through decent wages and genuinely affordable housing ended up fine, as did most of his generation.

Ah, decent wages and affordable housing. Why can't we have that again? Who would not want that to happen?

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2 minutes ago, Odakyu-sen said:

Ah, decent wages and affordable housing. Why can't we have that again? Who would not want that to happen?

The Conservative party membership and voters, landlords, bankers, CEOs, landowners etc.

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44 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The Conservative party membership and voters, landlords, bankers, CEOs, landowners etc.

Which political party would favour FHB? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Odakyu-sen said:

Which political party would favour FHB? 

Frankly none of the parties have a good offer for first time buyers, this has been just another "whatever you do don't talk about house prices being too high" election. My one and only reason for voting Labour is that when the banks' overlending on real estate inevitably goes wrong again and they come to the Treasury with the begging bowl a Corbyn/McDonnell government might say no to them and the end of moral hazard can be the start of deflating the credit-fuelled bubble in house prices.

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Well, if the system crashes and resets, the young will be in a better position to weather the storm. I wouldn't want to be a pensioner when the house of cards comes down. 

As for politicians, they are like nappies (as Mark Twain once wrote) and should be changed often, for the same reason. 

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11 hours ago, Odakyu-sen said:

Ah, decent wages and affordable housing. Why can't we have that again? Who would not want that to happen?

You've got it but not in the same place.

Most people on here could afford a house in Blackpool.  If they had their London income of course.

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11 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Back to medieval times basically, born into wealth and/or marry well = fine, otherwise life of struggle. Unlike the OP who grew up poor but through decent wages and genuinely affordable housing ended up fine, as did most of his generation.

Actually the OP is Generation Jones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones

A so-called "cusper" generation born 1954-1965.

Jonesers were given huge expectations as children in the 1960s, and then confronted with a different reality as they came of age during a long period of mass unemployment and when de-industrialization arrived full force in the mid-late 1970s and 1980s, leaving them with a certain unrequited "jonesing" quality for the more prosperous days of the past.

The generation is noted for coming of age after a huge swath of their older brothers and sisters in the earlier portion of the baby boomer population had come immediately preceding them; thus, many complain that there was a paucity of resources and privileges available to them that were seemingly abundant to older boomers. Therefore, there is a certain level of bitterness and "jonesing" for the level of freedom and affluence granted to older boomers but denied to them.

Sound familiar?

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33 minutes ago, kzb said:

Actually the OP is Generation Jones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones

A so-called "cusper" generation born 1954-1965.

Jonesers were given huge expectations as children in the 1960s, and then confronted with a different reality as they came of age during a long period of mass unemployment and when de-industrialization arrived full force in the mid-late 1970s and 1980s, leaving them with a certain unrequited "jonesing" quality for the more prosperous days of the past.

The generation is noted for coming of age after a huge swath of their older brothers and sisters in the earlier portion of the baby boomer population had come immediately preceding them; thus, many complain that there was a paucity of resources and privileges available to them that were seemingly abundant to older boomers. Therefore, there is a certain level of bitterness and "jonesing" for the level of freedom and affluence granted to older boomers but denied to them.

Sound familiar?

Don't recognise the description to be honest - born in 1961 so had to put up with s*** Education experiment comprehensive  schools but then had the option of loads of jobs and fully funded vocational apprenticeships or Uni (for a smaller no)

Then the world took off in the 80's and globalisation was never an issue until post 2000 at the earliest so it was a golden time

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1 hour ago, kzb said:

Actually the OP is Generation Jones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones

Interesting, I hadn't heard of this, thanks.

I did say further up the thread that as a 1959 baby the OP would likely have had an easier time of it if he was born 10 years earlier. Still, with a pretty modest CV he managed to buy a reasonably-sized 3 bedroom house on a nice street in SE England in his 30s so I don't think he can feel too hard done by.

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On 02/12/2019 at 07:35, Odakyu-sen said:

I understand the advantages of having a smaller population of, say, 30 million in the UK instead of 60 million. 

The problem is that during the years of population decline (the "deceleration" phase), the demographic pyramid is inverted (as Japan is experiencing at the moment, as they lose around a million a year from their net population). 

An inverted demographic pyramid is not a pleasant thing (although it is the inverse of a Ponzi scheme). So many old people who need looking after. Who is going to look after them? Where will the money come from? The only saving factor for the young (brutally speaking) is that the frail elderly need the youth, but the youth don't need the frail elderly. 

The elderly can sell me their large house for a much cheaper price and I'd be glad to pay a bit more tax to pay for their care. Who is going to do it is a good question. I don't fancy wiping bums.

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On 29/11/2019 at 23:46, prozac said:

This is not about Brexit, we are starting to hate each other, i have never come across a situation like this, a part of me wants to leave this country, we are becoming bitter and twisted.

 

That happens whenever their is large inequality. The youth are blaming boomers for the generational inequality and are pissed off that the boomers are trying to scapegoat this on immigrants. This is going to get worse until something changes.

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On 28/11/2019 at 22:26, mrpleasant said:

My goodness, it's been a long time. I dip in and out of these forums occasionally these days, but practically lived on here in from the mid to late noughties as Gordon's 'economic miracle' brought the economy to the brink of disaster. Now I need some sane words. I know I'll find them here, just like I did ten years and more ago.

Firstly, I'm a boomer and I voted for Brexit. If you are offended and immediately know who I am, what my values are, who I will vote for on the 12th, etc. etc. then please leave now because you have nothing of value to say to me. I'm already judged.

If you are still reading this, let me begin...

I was born in Wallasey in 1959. Boomer credentials established. My father was in the merchant navy and hardly ever home. I don't think I even recognised him as my father until I was about five. My mother was mainly at home apart from a brief spell at a Cadbury's factory where she worked on the conveyor belt and one day had a meltdown so they sent her home and she never went back. I played outside with the neighbourhood kids, learnt to ride a bike (someone else's), thought catapults were the coolest things in the world (though the word 'cool' was unknown to me then). My mother wouldn't ever let me have one. I did have a Man From Uncle cap gun though. I  liked and had access to a few books and enjoyed reading when I learned how to (we didn't have a TV). The only car in the neighbourhood was owned by the local taxi driver. I think I was happy. I wasn't aware of my father's drinking and the arguing. That came later.

When I was eight my mother broke the news to me that we were 'moving' (?) to Gravesend in Kent. I was very excited until they explained 'moving' meant a new school. When we eventually got down there the kids laughed at my Scouse accent (the word 'bear' caused particular mirth) and I didn't know what to say when someone shouted 'Watcha' at me. These became the affluent times. My father was obviously earning good money as the skipper of a Fyffes banana boat, but it was still some time before we owned a car (a Hillman Imp) and I was becoming aware of the rows and the smell of booze on him. I recall doing homework by candlelight around this time because of the power cuts, but don't remember if my mother was ranting about the Labour Party at the time. If she did it went in one ear and out the other. It all fell apart when the oil crisis came and my father lost his job. My mother cut her losses and she took us (I have a younger sister) to Falmouth where she bought a guest house so she had her financial independence. The bank wouldn't lend her any money so she had to keep the place open all year round. In the winter I could sleep in the small room at the top of the house, but she had to let it in the summer so my sister and I lived in a caravan in the back garden. Any vestige of a Scouse accent had gone and I hadn't really acquired Estuary but the local kids thought I was American and that I must be posh, even though most of them were better dressed than I was. There was no room for a desk in the caravan so studying and writing essays was a bit of a challenge. I did stay on for the sixth form, but didn't do well at all.

By the time I left school I hadn't seen my father for years, nor did I hear from him. I didn't give it a second thought. I didn't entertain the notion that I could go to university or college either. I got a Work Experience Programme job in a furniture shop in town. I earned £18 a week. I gave half to my mother in rent and used the rest for driving lessons, even though I had as much chance of buying a car as I did building a rocket and flying to the moon. The job was so boring my body began shutting down and I thought I had diabetes. I could barely climb the stairs in the morning. Fortunately a kindly admin lady realised what the problem was and told me hospital wasn't necessary. I then embarked on four years of casual work: waitering, cooking in a chip shop, cutting down Christmas trees, digging up spuds. I even did two weeks street sweeping for the council. The bin lorry guys had it made! Good money, finished by lunch time, riding in the lorry. Brilliant. I envied them. I had absolutely no direction, no plan, no motivation, no clue. One day, not long after my 21st birthday, I left a waitering job in Hampshire and was cycling to a station to head back to Falmouth for another summer in the chip shop and it dawned on me that everything I possessed was in panniers on the back of the bike. I had no passport, had never been on a plane. I didn't even have a bank account.

Later that year I was walking home from a shift at the chip shop and a car pulled up. It was one of my old teachers. He wanted to know what the hell I was doing. He instructed me to get UCAS forms, pick a university and turn up at his house. I did as I was told and he took out his cheque book and gave me the entry fee. I didn't get in. Of course not, my A levels (2 grade Es) were crap. But later that year a younger friend said she had a spare set of forms for a little teacher training college in Cheltenham. I filled them in and, bloody hell, I got in! The first morning in my little student accommodation room I got up and sat at the desk. It was 7.00am and I realised for the first time in years I knew where I was going to be and there was a purpose to my existence. I could hardly believe my luck. A friend visited and I gave him money and asked if he would buy me a dictionary in town. When he got back I put it on the bookshelf and amazed myself at how important it made me feel. I still have that dictionary.

After graduation I got a teaching job at an awful school in Eastbourne. It was only for a year to cover the RE teacher's absence as she was on sabbatical. (A couple of decades later it was in the news because a Maths teacher there ran off to France with s student.) It had bars on the ground floor windows to deter vandals. On my first day, the Deputy Head collected me from my bedsit and said all he asked was that I kept the kids contained for the duration of the lesson. I could have put the work in beforehand and got a better first school, but I knew teaching wasn't for me and I wasn't self-aware enough to have the sense. I did it for five more years elsewhere and in that time married my college girlfriend. She had got her second teaching job in Cardiff and, because she had a dog and didn't think anyone would let her rent, she borrowed £300 off an elderly aunt and used it as a deposit on a tiny two bed house on an estate. When we married she moved to where I was living (North Wales). She had no job to come to at first, but we were able to buy a run-down 1930s semi on my salary which we proceeded to decorate during holidays. We bought a second hand VW Polo which was the bees knees. If anyone had told me I was 'doing well under the Tories' I'd have stared at them in disbelief.

Around 1990 I embarked on a distance learning course in computer programming and got a trainee programmer job in the South East. My wife managed to get a teaching job just in time so we could get a mortgage on a boxy little 3 bed house on a large development. It was a filthy dirty hovel. The estate agent had no key to the back door so when the dog needed a sh*t I lowered him out of the window and leaned out to pick him up when he'd finished until we had the money to fit a patio door. When my wife was pregnant with our second we move a couple of miles away to a larger 3 bed house in a nice cul-de-sac. It was a total wreck with a condemned boiler so any spare cash went on making the place habitable. I spent many a sleepless night worrying what would happen if I lost my job. (I did get made redundant twice on my journey, but always survived in the end.)

Sometime in 2005 my wife commented that people on a forum she had stumbled across were saying a massive house price crash was coming. It sounded plausible because prices seemed crazy. In 2006 the first redundancy came. We got a good price for our place, but then we'd transformed it and built an extension. We hadn't had any foreign holidays and never ate out unless you count the occasional Burger King, but the kids didn't go without where it mattered. My wife had always wanted to go back to Cardiff (increasingly elderly and infirm parents) and our eldest had only just started secondary school. It was a now or never moment and the redundancy made it easier so we did it. I got a job in the IT department of a car parts factory. We were renting, looking at property on the market and arguing about whether the crash would ever come when one day I bought a paper which had 'Credit Crunch!' as a headline. It was August 2007. You know the rest. We eventually bought in 2012 because we were paying out a fortune in rent and it was depressing. The house was in an awful state and had been on the market on and off for years but was a nice size and in a quiet area. We've got it looking decent now, but the kids, now grown up, never did get to Disneyland. One day I hope they'll forgive us.

All the while this was going on the EEC was transforming from a bunch of people shaking hands and agreeing on a free trade deal into the EU, a vast, strangely sinister organisation of huge unaudited wealth and power. One that can tell its member states what the minimum percentage of meat they should put in their sausages and which can suffocate entire economies in Southern Europe from the labyrinth of offices it maintains grandly in Brussels. I'd been living in Falmouth in '73 and remembered the men who lost their livelihoods in fishing almost overnight. I didn't much like the slow erosion of control membership entailed and when Cameron came back empty handed from an attempt at negotiating a few months before the referendum my distrust began to turn into anger. I voted, with some reluctance and unease, to leave when the time came. Whether it will turn out to be a good idea in the end I have absolutely no clue, but I guess there'll be winners and losers just like when we joined. I don't think of it, and never have, as a friendly institution that represents the breaking down of borders and the building of trust between nations. I heard about an elderly Greek dentist who took his own life rather than rummage in bins for food in his old age and the thought of the EU impassively turning its face away from that situation and the vast numbers of under 24s without hope of employment in those poorer member states left a bad taste.

So suddenly I'm 60 and just discovered that people around me at work, who have never heard my story, have already judged me. I'm a boomer, I 'did well under the Tories'. I don't care about the poor and homeless because I've 'pulled the ladder up'. In all likelihood I'm probably a racist because I voted to leave (and don't want the immigrants from coming' over 'ere and takin' our jobs). From my experience, the caring, sharing Labour Party in the end crash the economy and that helps no one, but I should overlook this because if I don't vote for Corbyn I'm effectively saying I'm happy to watch homeless people dying the streets. I honestly had no idea I was this guy! So I'm asking you, am I? Is that who I am and I've been fooling myself all along?

I'm a boomer and I voted for Brexit. Sorry.

A very good read - thanks - and no I don't judge you for anything. 

Re: the politics though - I'd far prefer McDonnell to any Tory I can think of - good forward thinking economics - and very unlike previous Labour administrations - if anything more mainstream in terms of being more aligned culturally with the Nordic countries than the alternatives - a bit like the SNP. 

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

The elderly can sell me their large house for a much cheaper price and I'd be glad to pay a bit more tax to pay for their care. Who is going to do it is a good question. I don't fancy wiping bums.

Maybe an agreement can be reached. Elderly with assets who  need care. Youth without assets who can give care. Maybe some kind of an inter-generational swap of sorts. 

If immigration levels were reduced, the natural sub-replacement birthrate would ultimately mean more houses available (although the problems of individuals owning multiple properties, as well as the houses being located in places where there is little demand for housing or employment opportunities would remain).

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11 hours ago, dugsbody said:

That happens whenever their is large inequality. The youth are blaming boomers for the generational inequality and are pissed off that the boomers are trying to scapegoat this on immigrants. This is going to get worse until something changes.

When I was young I realized that the problem was large scale immigration and not enough house building.

Of course not the immigrants' fault that Blair let them - in some cases - paid them - to come here but didn't let the market build enough houses.

(With the exception of those who lied to get Asylum of course).

I agree with you things are going to get worse.

The funny thing is I have more friends who are immigrants than non - and most of them think that house price inflation is partly caused by more people.  Doesn't mean immigration is bad - maybe enriching the Wilsons is a price worth paying for the benefits of immigration.

Edited by iamnumerate

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15 hours ago, GregBowman said:

Don't recognise the description to be honest - born in 1961 so had to put up with s*** Education experiment comprehensive  schools but then had the option of loads of jobs and fully funded vocational apprenticeships or Uni (for a smaller no)

Then the world took off in the 80's and globalisation was never an issue until post 2000 at the earliest so it was a golden time

Who's "world took off in the 80's ???!"

This was the classic Thatcher era of mass unemployment.  Whole communities were decimated and they still have not recovered.  Generation Jones came onto the marketplace in this era.

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24 minutes ago, kzb said:

Who's "world took off in the 80's ???!"

This was the classic Thatcher era of mass unemployment.  Whole communities were decimated and they still have not recovered.  Generation Jones came onto the marketplace in this era.

South of Birmingham. Manchester, (I worked there 87-90), Cardiff, Leeds  plenty of places actually 

As for whole communities being decimated what was the country supposed to do ? I worked in a factory run by Lucas in London 3000 people 78-82 - we never got special 'help' because we couldn't compete with Bosch. Eventually it closed and we all moved on doubt if it made the national news. Was every industrial plant supposed to be subsidised ? 

There was little sympathy for the miners or steel workers - the view of the majority was why were our taxes being used to support these industries when our jobs were under threat as well. We were  all Union members and probably the majority labour voting.

It was the classic era of opportunity for many working class people 

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1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

South of Birmingham. Manchester, (I worked there 87-90), Cardiff, Leeds  plenty of places actually 

As for whole communities being decimated what was the country supposed to do ? I worked in a factory run by Lucas in London 3000 people 78-82 - we never got special 'help' because we couldn't compete with Bosch. Eventually it closed and we all moved on doubt if it made the national news. Was every industrial plant supposed to be subsidised ? 

There was little sympathy for the miners or steel workers - the view of the majority was why were our taxes being used to support these industries when our jobs were under threat as well. We were  all Union members and probably the majority labour voting.

It was the classic era of opportunity for many working class people 

I'm sorry but whether or not you think Thatcher was ultimately for the good or bad, no-one can describe the early 1980's as a good time for working class people

I've never heard that before, ever.

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10 minutes ago, kzb said:

I'm sorry but whether or not you think Thatcher was ultimately for the good or bad, no-one can describe the early 1980's as a good time for working class people

I've never heard that before, ever.

I certainly have. White man van prospered. Nationalised monopoly man suffered.

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1 minute ago, Si1 said:

I certainly have. White man van prospered. Nationalised monopoly man suffered.

and spiv man went on to prosper even more... good old Tory neoliberal economics flowing through. Spivonomics. 

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1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

South of Birmingham. Manchester, (I worked there 87-90), Cardiff, Leeds  plenty of places actually 

As for whole communities being decimated what was the country supposed to do ? I worked in a factory run by Lucas in London 3000 people 78-82 - we never got special 'help' because we couldn't compete with Bosch. Eventually it closed and we all moved on doubt if it made the national news. Was every industrial plant supposed to be subsidised ? 

There was little sympathy for the miners or steel workers - the view of the majority was why were our taxes being used to support these industries when our jobs were under threat as well. We were  all Union members and probably the majority labour voting.

It was the classic era of opportunity for many working class people 

Surely under EEC rules we couldn't have subsidised them for every anyway?

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52 minutes ago, kzb said:

I'm sorry but whether or not you think Thatcher was ultimately for the good or bad, no-one can describe the early 1980's as a good time for working class people

I've never heard that before, ever.

Well perhaps you weren't a lad who worked in a factory from 78 -82 , then joined IBM as a typewriter mechanic along with 60 other working class lads who went on to forge careers based on the breaking of the old class structure principally by Mrs Thatcher. There were millions of us as well.

Social mobility improved in the 80s and 90s, new analysis has found, but there are warnings that the trend may now be going backwards.

Analysis by the Office for National Statistics found that the chances of moving up social classes improved between 1981-91, when grocer’s daughter Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, and 1991-2001 when she was succeeded by the son of circus entertainers John Major

Don't just take my word for it 😉 it was a time of massive opportunity for the working class even parodied by Harry Enfield with his Loads of money character - don't know where you were but as I said I worked in the North West so knew it wasn't just a London thing

You are a boomer right so you were there ?

 

Edited by GregBowman

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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