Triple Lock Pension Bribe

[Si1]

1 hour ago, crouch said:

It's not swings and roundabouts at all or special pleading.

State provision is more likely to be indexed; private provision much less so.

Private provision is subject to wide swings in investment markets and is far more difficult to plan. Furthermore, if markets do move against you, as they have for around 30 years, any deficiency in provision has not only to be met going forward but must also recoup deficiencies that have accumulated historically which in many cases for someone in their fifties is virtually impossible.

Low interest rates have decimated private pension provision as has increased longevity, a direct example of market fluctuations. This affects both DB and DC pensions.

State provision is based on how much is needed to live; private provision is based on how much you already have not need.

To say there is "roundabouts and swings" between state and private provision is laughable.

 

So you're saying the boomers haven't made sufficient provision for their old age and later generations should pay? Right-o!

 

Swings, roundabouts:

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Si1

[kzb]

1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

But "our European partners" don't have pension credit to top up the state pension of the poor, nor do they have as good occupational pensions for the rich.

Fixating on that one figure - the basic state pension - does not tell the whole story.

According to that FullFacts article they do (quote):

France, Spain and Germany all have safety net social assistance payments for the elderly, where income and assets are taken into account so poorer pensioners get more. 

 

 

[Si1]

Just now, kzb said:

According to that FullFacts article they do (quote):

France, Spain and Germany all have safety net social assistance payments for the elderly, where income and assets are taken into account so poorer pensioners get more. 

 

 

Indeed they do, and appear to top up to similar levels across UK and other countries

[kzb]

6 minutes ago, Si1 said:

So you're saying the boomers haven't made sufficient provision for their old age and later generations should pay? Right-o!

The  graphic that you posted shows UK boomers made much better provision  than the other countries !

[Si1]

5 minutes ago, kzb said:

The  graphic that you posted shows UK boomers made much better provision  than the other countries !

Oh it looks fine yes. I didn't say you said that

[scottbeard]

3 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Workers have been getting -0.x% real pay settlements for 10 years now.

 

2 hours ago, onlooker said:

Why do write things like this, when it is so easy to show you are wrong?

 

2 hours ago, scottbeard said:

Erm - your link doesn't prove him WRONG it proves him RIGHT!  The last year has been above inflation, but overall look at the total period 2009-2019 and for most of it the "real" pay growth is below zero:

 

39 minutes ago, onlooker said:

Real earnings up 16.4% since 2001.

I never said earnings never dipped down. They did during the GFC and aftermath partly because hours worked were reduced.

They are now on a solidly rising trend again.

Now you're posting things that are true in their own right - but different points.

Dorkins said real wages over the last 10 years have fallen.  You said he is demonstrably wrong.  That's false because he's right as my table below shows.

Now you say earnings are up since 2001.  Well that's true, but only because of 2001-2007 which are not in the last 10 years.

Now you say earnings are on an upward trend.  Well that's true as well, but we were talking about the last 10 years and not the next 10.

Over the last 10 years real wages have fallen.  That's a fact:

[kzb]

2 hours ago, Si1 said:

That's because their state pensions are contributory and ours aren't. You top your state pension here by getting a private one in addition, in France or Germany you can buy extra state pension whereas here you can't above quite a low basic amount.

So the bottom end is the fairer comparison.

The mandatory state pension in France is entirely comparable to the UK funding model.  It is funded from ongoing employees "national insurance" contributions.

The difference is, they get a final-salary pension scheme in return !   If we got that I would be more than happy !

[crouch]

36 minutes ago, Si1 said:

So you're saying the boomers haven't made sufficient provision for their old age and later generations should pay? Right-o!

 

Swings, roundabouts:

 

No, and that's not implied by what I said.

State provision is autonomous and does not reflect the performance of private pensions. The decline in private provision is serious not because that shortfall will fall on the state but because it will not. It not only implies more pensioner poverty at the margin, which the state may well pick up, but more substantially a significant reduction in the purchasing power of those in retirement and it is consumption that keeps the economy going.

Later generations may pay in the form of higher unemployment resulting from the shortfall in private provision but the main burden will overwhelmingly fall on the retired.

Lower pensions are simply the flip side of lower interest rates on mortgages. Your No 1 enemy, the boomers, have been rubbing their hands for years over low mortgage payments; a deterioration in pensions is the flip side which they will not appreciate.

[kzb]

31 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Over the last 10 years real wages have fallen.  That's a fact:

It might be a fact but it is not a reason to reduce state pensions.

It is a reason to join the union and fight for your wage rise, like the hated boomers did in their day.

Right now they are rioting in Paris, partially because the government wants to downgrade the pension provision.  That state pension provision in France is way above what we get in Britain, as I have shown. 

Yet they are rioting to protect it.

[scottbeard]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

It might be a fact but it is not a reason to reduce state pensions.

I'm fed up with arguing about this, to be honest.  No futher comments on the subject from me.  I'm not going to riot about anything, that's for sure.

I was just posting to correct a fact because it's annoying when people repeatedly don't accept something factual, or post other unrelated facts as their justification.

[Peter Hun]

On 12/11/2019 at 13:30, kzb said:

The worrying thing is, the delusion that saving a few quid from state pensioners will make younger peoples' live better.

State pension cost the UK £100billion per year.  Its rubbish to claim that this is a small amount of  money. The number of pensioners will double when the Baby Boomers retire, and the workers will have to pay far more than a cup of coffee a week to support it,

Interesting how you and Couch are so keen on kicking out the EU immigrants, through Brexit, who would support the Boomer pension payments.

[kzb]

5 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

I'm fed up with arguing about this, to be honest.  No futher comments on the subject from me.  I'm not going to riot about anything, that's for sure.

I was just posting to correct a fact because it's annoying when people repeatedly don't accept something factual, or post other unrelated facts as their justification.

I'm fed up with the continuing attacks on pensioners on these forums.  Not from you I hasten to add.

 

[iamnumerate]

On 10/11/2019 at 21:30, Arpeggio said:

Agree. The current FPTP voting system makes skewed polls, vote fraud,  gerrymandering, bull s*** promises and bribes more effective.

https://www.makevotesmatter.org.uk/proportional-representation

 

Very true

[kzb]

5 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

State pension cost the UK £100billion per year.  Its rubbish to claim that this is a small amount of  money. The number of pensioners will double when the Baby Boomers retire, and the workers will have to pay far more than a cup of coffee a week to support it,

Interesting how you and Couch are so keen on kicking out the EU immigrants, through Brexit, who would support the Boomer pension payments.

I'm not keen on kicking out EU immigrants per se.  If they are truly self-supporting net tax payers I welcome them.

What is noteworthy, is it is entirely socially acceptable to attack pensioners, but any criticism of our immigration control and everyone screams racism.

As I pointed out above, the French get a state-funded final salary pension scheme.  You love the EU and everything it stands for, so why not support a similar level of funding here?

Edited November 14, 2019 by kzb

[crouch]

1 hour ago, Peter Hun said:

Interesting how you and Couch are so keen on kicking out the EU immigrants, through Brexit, who would support the Boomer pension payments.

Total misrepresentation. I want controlled borders. Controlled borders may mean half the number of immigrants from the EU; OTOH it may mean double that number; both are compatible with control and both are acceptable within the context of control.

No EU immigrants should be "kicked out" unless for cause - another misrepresentation.

And they are not "boomer" pension payments; they are pension payments for all - including you.

[crouch]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

I'm fed up with the continuing attacks on pensioners on these forums.  Not from you I hasten to add.

 

Scapegoats are necessary for the ignorant; they simplify matters.

[kzb]

15 minutes ago, crouch said:

Scapegoats are necessary for the ignorant; they simplify matters.

But how did it become great to scapegoat the most vulnerable in society ?  How did this come about?

Also completely idiotic, because they themselves will be pensioners one day.  They are just spiting themselves in the long run. 

You would expect people to fight FOR a decent pension in their futures !

[crouch]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

But how did it become great to scapegoat the most vulnerable in society ?  How did this come about?

Also completely idiotic, because they themselves will be pensioners one day.  They are just spiting themselves in the long run. 

You would expect people to fight FOR a decent pension in their futures !

Bitterness fuels irrationality.

[iamnumerate]

2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

State pension cost the UK £100billion per year.  Its rubbish to claim that this is a small amount of  money. The number of pensioners will double when the Baby Boomers retire, and the workers will have to pay far more than a cup of coffee a week to support it,

Interesting how you and Couch are so keen on kicking out the EU immigrants, through Brexit, who would support the Boomer pension payments.

I have a good friend from Italy, he earns less than £20k p.a and gets his rent paid by tax credits.  I am not sure how EU immigrants like him (not all are like him but some are) support anything whatsoever - except his landlord!

 

Also his son has an interpreter in school!

Edited November 14, 2019 by iamnumerate

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, crouch said:

Scapegoats are necessary for the ignorant; they simplify matters.

The brexit story summed up.

[crouch]

7 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

The brexit story summed up.

Quite; credulous remainers need simplicity.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, crouch said:

And they are not "boomer" pension payments; they are pension payments for all - including you.

I'm a Boomer, I still object to the inter-generational unfairness that applies to the UK population. Our generation is leeching off the young, there is no dispute of this fact. We paid less tax and get far more back. We have been gifted HPI at the government and taxpayers expense.

We return the favour by raising the draw bridge and F***ing the next two generations economically ...because Brexit is not about economics !! Not to Boomers it isn't, because they won't be paying for it

 

1 hour ago, crouch said:

Total misrepresentation. I want controlled borders. Controlled borders may mean half the number of immigrants from the EU; OTOH it may mean double that number; both are compatible with control and both are acceptable within the context of control.

No EU immigrants should be "kicked out" unless for cause - another misrepresentation.

Of course, of course blahg-blah -blah - real meaning  "F*** the next generation. they can work like slaves to pay my pension".

The real reason Blair opened the floodgate to EU immigration was to provide a workforce to support the aging Boomers in their decrepitude... because once again, the selfish gits didn't have enough children.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, crouch said:

scapegoat the most vulnerable in society ?

Our generation is richer and better treated that any that follows. I would not blame them if they turn around and elect a government that removes that wealth back to the workers.

[crouch]

6 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

I'm a Boomer, I still object to the inter-generational unfairness that applies to the UK population. Our generation is leeching off the young, there is no dispute of this fact. We paid less tax and get far more back. We have been gifted HPI at the government and taxpayers expense.

We return the favour by raising the draw bridge and F***ing the next two generations economically ...because Brexit is not about economics !! Not to Boomers it isn't, because they won't be paying for it

 

Of course, of course blahg-blah -blah - real meaning  "F*** the next generation. they can work like slaves to pay my pension".

The real reason Blair opened the floodgate to EU immigration was to provide a workforce to support the aging Boomers in their decrepitude... because once again, the selfish gits didn't have enough children.

Good post. It illustrates total idiocy in full flow where the bitterness is only exceeded by the ignorance.

[crouch]

9 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

I would not blame them if they turn around and elect a government that removes that wealth back to the workers.

No. I'm sure you wouldn't.