Dorkins Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 30 minutes ago, longgone said: you are 30 and you have 50 and 72 year old`s working for you. ? If happyguy/mallish is 30 I'm Jacob Rees-Mogg's nanny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 "no taxation without representation" - what about a 16 year old paying national insurance and income tax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dorkins said: If happyguy/mallish is 30 I'm Jacob Rees-Mogg's nanny. maybe he runs a nursing home oldies generally are working for the owners of them. ? i agree the tone of that post was happymeal guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 23 minutes ago, Si1 said: I can't believe people are connecting tax paying with voting. That's like the 19th century. 1 person 1 vote irrespective of property wealth or tax paying. Besides that implies that tax payment is then primary measure of contribution to society. Should Florence Nightingale not have had the vote if she didn't pay enough tax? As to snowflakes on university campuses, sure, but they're outnumbered by the working class young who don't go near university. Sorry if they don't pay enough taxes for you. Meanwhile they get to inherit the national debt, the climate crisis (irrespective of how it should be dealt), and the housing crisis, more so than middle class snowflakes at Oxbridge. But sorry, they don't pay enough taxes so they can't have a say. No I am not intending to do that really. Adult citizens should have the vote irrespective of taxpayer status, agreed. But apparently half of young people do not believe in this either, at least if we believe this Express story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, Si1 said: "no taxation without representation" - what about a 16 year old paying national insurance and income tax? His or her parents vote with their interests in mind. They are too immature and inexperienced in life to vote for themselves. Would you let 4 year olds vote? In any case, 16 yo paying tax and NI these days is likely some tax avoidance scam by their rich parents rather than they themselves earning the money. Yes there might be a few exceptions but as a percentage it is small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBowman Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, Dorkins said: Sounds like a good way to create a slave class. Distort price levels enough that a significant proportion of wages are ground down to subsistence levels so can't afford to pay tax, then take the vote away from people earning subsistence wages saying they don't deserve the vote because they don't pay tax. why is it always binary D ? I know you are a calculating type I was specifically talking about youngsters 16-18 not the general populace 18 over and I never said take the vote away from those tax payers just don't expect me to get excited about a load of kids voting or are the sort of parent who sees them as your mates ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBowman Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Just now, kzb said: His or her parents vote with their interests in mind. They are too immature and inexperienced in life to vote for themselves. Would you let 4 year olds vote? In any case, 16 yo paying tax and NI these days is likely some tax avoidance scam by their rich parents rather than they themselves earning the money. Yes there might be a few exceptions but as a percentage it is small. I forget to say your first line exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 14 minutes ago, kzb said: No I am not intending to do that really. Adult citizens should have the vote irrespective of taxpayer status, agreed. But apparently half of young people do not believe in this either, at least if we believe this Express story. Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 A person under 18 is defined as a child by UN convention, which UK law has adopted. A child is classed as a vulnerable person, and requires special care and protection by the rest of society. This is enshrined in all kinds of laws. Notice that the term young people, referring to teenagers under 18, is rarely used these days. No, these days on the BBC, a 17-year old is a child. I also think that people are infantilised up to increasing ages as time goes on. Grown men of 35 jumping around in short pants, not a good look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 when did voting make a difference anyway ? brexit anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 16 minutes ago, kzb said: A person under 18 is defined as a child by UN convention, which UK law has adopted. A child is classed as a vulnerable person, and requires special care and protection by the rest of society. This is enshrined in all kinds of laws. Notice that the term young people, referring to teenagers under 18, is rarely used these days. No, these days on the BBC, a 17-year old is a child. I also think that people are infantilised up to increasing ages as time goes on. Grown men of 35 jumping around in short pants, not a good look. Very true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Peter Hun said: Fine, make the vote only apply to taxpayers. There is the glaring democratic anomaly that non taxpayers voted to hammer taxpayers by voting for Brexit. In the case of state pensioners, they are immune to the inflationary cost of their actions. Unemployed and economically inactive who depend on taxpayers for their survival.. why should they be allowed vote to increase taxes? Is that true that Brexit was voted for by non taxpayers? I didn't that was known either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 An aspect of this is that typically elections only happen every 4 or 5 years, so a 16 year old allowed to vote might not get the chance until they are 20 anyway. Also most teenagers don't exactly rush to get themselves registered the day after they become eligible. I dont have the stats to hand but a big proportion of 20 year olds are not registered to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micawber Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said: An aspect of this is that typically elections only happen every 4 or 5 years, so a 16 year old allowed to vote might not get the chance until they are 20 anyway. Also most teenagers don't exactly rush to get themselves registered the day after they become eligible. I dont have the stats to hand but a big proportion of 20 year olds are not registered to vote. I have no evidence to support this other than anecdotal, but I think that most eligible teenagers would be registered given that they still live with their parents and they will have included them in the electoral roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 9 out of 237 countries have a voting age of 16. Most countries it’s 18. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/legal-voting-age-by-country.html 5 hours ago, Si1 said: "no taxation without representation" - what about a 16 year old paying national insurance and income tax? 16 year olds can vote in Bosnia and Herzegovina if they are employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 5 hours ago, Si1 said: "no taxation without representation" - what about a 16 year old paying national insurance and income tax? I disagree with this because surely then a 5 year old who earns enough could vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, iamnumerate said: I disagree with this because surely then a 5 year old who earns enough could vote Working hours limits mean an under 16 year old will never pay tax, except in the extremely rare cases of successful child actors, models etc (I would think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Si1 said: Working hours limits mean an under 16 year old will never pay tax, except in the extremely rare cases of successful child actors, models etc (I would think) True but surely no 5 year old should ever vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, iamnumerate said: True but surely no 5 year old should ever vote. Well of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 6 hours ago, kzb said: So your post does not fit with the narrative I am afraid. I bet the percentage of pensioners paying tax is far higher than that of 16 year olds anyhow. Not my narrative, so pffft. Let the higher percent vote and the lower, all taxpayers welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 9 hours ago, GregBowman said: I agree with your view but the thought that people over 70 shouldn't vote is a hideous anti democratic idea I do think they should have their mental faculties tested though. Some get isolated and start coming out with strange views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 5 hours ago, kzb said: His or her parents vote with their interests in mind. They are too immature and inexperienced in life to vote for themselves. Would you let 4 year olds vote? In any case, 16 yo paying tax and NI these days is likely some tax avoidance scam by their rich parents rather than they themselves earning the money. Yes there might be a few exceptions but as a percentage it is small. I had summer jobs at 15 that paid £120 per week. I think health and safety culture hadn’t quite surfaced then though as that was the late 1980s. Now if you employed a 15 year old they’d need a safety briefing on how to use a pencil sharpener and all the other staff would have to be checked against the sex offenders register. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Si1 said: Well of course Actually there was a politician who said 7 year olds should be consulted over Brexit, so nothing is obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 6 hours ago, GregBowman said: why is it always binary D ? I know you are a calculating type I was specifically talking about youngsters 16-18 not the general populace 18 over and I never said take the vote away from those tax payers just don't expect me to get excited about a load of kids voting or are the sort of parent who sees them as your mates ? It's binary logic because you're either a voter or you aren't so there has to be a set of rules which will unambiguously place any person in or out of the pool of voters. You don't walk into the town hall and some grumpy old guy with a beard looks you up and down and says 'hmm you seem like you've had enough life experience, here's your poll card'. If you are only talking about 'no representation without taxation' with respect to youngsters 16-18, should people in that age range who earn enough to pay income tax get the vote? Personally I would like the social contract for teenagers changed quite a bit, I would reduce the minimum school leaving age to 14 as I have seen many 14-18 year olds in classrooms who don't want to be there and are just wasting their own and everybody else's time. I would use the money saved to fund adult evening classes in maths and english GCSE for those who later decide they want to come back to get some qualifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBowman Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: I do think they should have their mental faculties tested though. Some get isolated and start coming out with strange views. That isn’t really an age related thing though is it ? You did see the XR protests right ? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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