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44 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

I agree but in relative terms Tesla are a small player. VW have massive range coming on line next year of EV vehicles as do Volvo with their Polestar brand. Ultimately Tesla are a battery company the commercial division is very profitable.

 

 

Tesla was always about battery tech, they don't have the capacity for mass production like vw  and under the skin the cars are poorly constructed. 

what does surprise me is no one is developing a conversion kit for old cars to convert to electric. shame to waste all those perfectly good shells Vw would be a good contender as the platform sharing is rife. 

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1 hour ago, mattyboy1973 said:

I think this, along with battery supply, is actually Tesla's long term plan. Not to sell cars at all, but to run a fleet of self-driving, on demand cars. They're not the only ones, of course - this is Uber's long term plan as well, and I'm sure there are others. I have little doubt that it will happen, although there is some uncertainty as to the timescales. It'll be a shake up like no other when it does.

As to the point about Tesla cutting into luxury car sales in the US. I did read something interesting about this recently. The upshot was that, although ICE still make more economic sense than all electric right now, the tipping point is predicted to come fairly soon - perhaps within 3-5 years, at which point we can expect a fairly major switch to electric vehicles in fairly short order. The fact that this tipping point is now quite tangible and quite soon works to actually bring forward demand for electric vehicles now, since more forward thinking buyers don't want to be left with an ICE vehicle that could be worth drastically less in just a few years time.

good points. 

something else many are missing is the parts factories winding down. the likes of vw see absolutely no point in churning out turbos and radiators etc for cars that in not to many years will be non existent. as they will make these parts for years of use ahead then these factories will surely be the first to close down. some will surely shift over to the new cars but engine and engine/ drivetrain parts companies will surely be very woried for their jobs, companies like lucas and fram and mann etc where is their future going to be? 

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2 hours ago, longgone said:

 

what does surprise me is no one is developing a conversion kit for old cars to convert to electric. shame to waste all those perfectly good shells Vw would be a good contender as the platform sharing is rife. 

There are such kits around, especially in the US - watched a video about this a few months ago. I doubt it's something the manufacturers will ever get behind, since they will want to sell you a new car of course. To me, conversion sounds expensive and rather sub-optimal. You won't get many of the benefits of EVs such as "designed in" batteries, extra space and lower maintenance from lack of drive train etc and I wonder if things like regenerative braking can be retro-fitted? As far as I know, retro-fit kits simply swap a big electric motor for the existing engine, so you still have the original drive train etc. Maybe OK if the conversion was relatively cheap and you just wanted a local runabout with low running costs. Also I'd wonder about the resale value on a third-party modified EV - your total cost of ownership is likely to be far less by buying a new one.

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3 hours ago, longgone said:

Tesla was always about battery tech, they don't have the capacity for mass production like vw  and under the skin the cars are poorly constructed. 

what does surprise me is no one is developing a conversion kit for old cars to convert to electric. shame to waste all those perfectly good shells Vw would be a good contender as the platform sharing is rife. 

Starting to happen - https://electrek.co/2019/08/27/startup-electric-retrofits-tesla-batteries/

 

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42 minutes ago, mattyboy1973 said:

There are such kits around, especially in the US - watched a video about this a few months ago. I doubt it's something the manufacturers will ever get behind, since they will want to sell you a new car of course. To me, conversion sounds expensive and rather sub-optimal. You won't get many of the benefits of EVs such as "designed in" batteries, extra space and lower maintenance from lack of drive train etc and I wonder if things like regenerative braking can be retro-fitted? As far as I know, retro-fit kits simply swap a big electric motor for the existing engine, so you still have the original drive train etc. Maybe OK if the conversion was relatively cheap and you just wanted a local runabout with low running costs. Also I'd wonder about the resale value on a third-party modified EV - your total cost of ownership is likely to be far less by buying a new one.

Its more for fun old cars - yank tanks lend themselves to it strong chassis lots of space but antiquated old V8's in them.

The sort of person who converts their range Rover or American to LPG plenty of people who give it a go me included 

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1 hour ago, jimmy2x3 said:

good points. 

something else many are missing is the parts factories winding down. the likes of vw see absolutely no point in churning out turbos and radiators etc for cars that in not to many years will be non existent. as they will make these parts for years of use ahead then these factories will surely be the first to close down. some will surely shift over to the new cars but engine and engine/ drivetrain parts companies will surely be very woried for their jobs, companies like lucas and fram and mann etc where is their future going to be? 

The drive train is probably quite a small part of their product offering. Nippon Denso, Delphi (who bought Lucas) supply all the ancillaries Aircon, Brakes, instruments, sensors, air bags etc, wipers, alarms, power motors (seats and windows)

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1 minute ago, GregBowman said:

Its more for fun old cars - yank tanks lend themselves to it strong chassis lots of space but antiquated old V8's in them.

I think older cars are also much easier to do. Modern engines and integrated electronics make converison much more difficult (and expensive), and the engine does quite a bit more than just turn the wheels as well in most cars - e.g. air con, heating, power steering, power brakes etc. The upshot is that it costs an awful lot of money for a car that won't be that great. Older cars with simpler engines are easier to do and probably more worthwhile due to uniqueness factor etc.

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6 minutes ago, mattyboy1973 said:

I think older cars are also much easier to do. Modern engines and integrated electronics make converison much more difficult (and expensive), and the engine does quite a bit more than just turn the wheels as well in most cars - e.g. air con, heating, power steering, power brakes etc. The upshot is that it costs an awful lot of money for a car that won't be that great. Older cars with simpler engines are easier to do and probably more worthwhile due to uniqueness factor etc.

A quick google because of this thread!!! shows it is older cars that will be the recipient of this technology so totally agree. Common thinking in the petrol head community is that if you are going to keep something long term you need an analogue car which is something pre 2000 or earlier

Edited by GregBowman

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re: comments like, "the thing about Tesla - they are a battery company."

 

You do realise their batteries are currently designed and made by LG, Samsung and Panasonic?

 

Here is and article from a few days ago about how they are HOPING to get into the battery business:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2019/10/06/tesla-acquires-battery-expert-hibar/

Edited by reddog

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21 minutes ago, reddog said:

re: comments like, "the thing about Tesla - they are a battery company."

 

You do realise their batteries are currently designed and made by LG, Samsung and Panasonic?

 

Here is and article from a few days ago about how they are HOPING to get into the battery business:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2019/10/06/tesla-acquires-battery-expert-hibar/

So not leading edge within the battery world ?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/korihale/2019/08/06/teslas-megapack-battery-ambitions-could-drain-cobalt-supply/amp/

Consortiums  are quite common at this level don’t you realise ...😉
 

Just because you have some IP doesn’t mean you won’t acquire more 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GregBowman said:

The drive train is probably quite a small part of their product offering. Nippon Denso, Delphi (who bought Lucas) supply all the ancillaries Aircon, Brakes, instruments, sensors, air bags etc, wipers, alarms, power motors (seats and windows)

Most of the electronic systems including the ECU's are Bosch I.e radar adaptive cruise,  collision protection, lane change safety etc.

Delphi Panasonic continental alpine produce most of the nav radio systems. I used to repair and code them as a hobby side line.

2 hours ago, mattyboy1973 said:

I think older cars are also much easier to do. Modern engines and integrated electronics make converison much more difficult (and expensive), and the engine does quite a bit more than just turn the wheels as well in most cars - e.g. air con, heating, power steering, power brakes etc. The upshot is that it costs an awful lot of money for a car that won't be that great. Older cars with simpler engines are easier to do and probably more worthwhile due to uniqueness factor etc.

Most of the issues will be Canbus related every modern car literally has a built in network to cut down on wiring.  New modules can be added for replacement systems however you have things like component protection to keep bits and Bob's from other cars being fitted to yours However these problems can be resolved if you know how to.😉

I have successfully put the navigation from a 2017 car into a 13 plate one. VW say this is impossibly without buying a new car. Well they would wouldn't they.  Your car has licences like an old PC which can be cracked.

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6 hours ago, longgone said:

Tesla was always about battery tech, they don't have the capacity for mass production like vw  and under the skin the cars are poorly constructed. 

what does surprise me is no one is developing a conversion kit for old cars to convert to electric. shame to waste all those perfectly good shells Vw would be a good contender as the platform sharing is rife. 

VW themselves starting schemes to retrofit electric powertrains to classic beetles. 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show

Edited by regprentice

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1 hour ago, reddog said:

re: comments like, "the thing about Tesla - they are a battery company."

 

You do realise their batteries are currently designed and made by LG, Samsung and Panasonic?

 

Here is and article from a few days ago about how they are HOPING to get into the battery business:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2019/10/06/tesla-acquires-battery-expert-hibar/

Was just thinking this as I read the tread. Tesla don't make the batteries.   I actually think Panasonic just rent a section of their gigafactory. 

Also didn't Tesla release all patents to the public? 

 

 

Edited by 2buyornot2buy

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7 hours ago, longgone said:

Tesla was always about battery tech, they don't have the capacity for mass production like vw  and under the skin the cars are poorly constructed. 

what does surprise me is no one is developing a conversion kit for old cars to convert to electric. shame to waste all those perfectly good shells Vw would be a good contender as the platform sharing is rife. 

Yeah, thats why they only produce 30k+ cars a month in their first factory, and they can only bring factories online in a really ssssllllloooowwww 11 months (hint: yeah ... thats really "slow" ... like multiples fatser then their competitors).

And their cars are very poorly constructed "under the skin" ... that's why they only last 460k+ miles ... ah no, wait. Maybe not.

Whilst you might validly argue that their construction in and "on" the skin is not as good (and many ould agree) they are so "terrible" under the skin that they are capale of the likes of OTA updates.

And converting older cars is a massive fail (in terms of at-scale vehicle retrofitting) because the chassis has been refined and refined and refined again for an altogether very different layout.

Makes great sense on the micro scale and preservation and excellent art (too!) ... but 0 sense in terms of industrial scale.

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10 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Was just thinking this as I read the tread. Tesla don't make the batteries.   I actually think Panasonic just rent a section of their gigafactory. 

Also didn't Tesla release all patents to the public? 

 

 

Many patents. Clearly not all. Released the ones focussed on the necessity of active battery management etc etc (and other things previously deemed impossible or impractical).

Edited by Aidan Ap Word

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1 hour ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

Yeah, thats why they only produce 30k+ cars a month in their first factory, and they can only bring factories online in a really ssssllllloooowwww 11 months (hint: yeah ... thats really "slow" ... like multiples fatser then their competitors).

And their cars are very poorly constructed "under the skin" ... that's why they only last 460k+ miles ... ah no, wait. Maybe not.

Whilst you might validly argue that their construction in and "on" the skin is not as good (and many ould agree) they are so "terrible" under the skin that they are capale of the likes of OTA updates.

And converting older cars is a massive fail (in terms of at-scale vehicle retrofitting) because the chassis has been refined and refined and refined again for an altogether very different layout.

Makes great sense on the micro scale and preservation and excellent art (too!) ... but 0 sense in terms of industrial scale.

Not sure anyone is advocating large scale just ‘art’ scale 

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4 hours ago, regprentice said:

VW themselves starting schemes to retrofit electric powertrains to classic beetles. 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show

looks good.  I imagine many conversions will be available in the future.  once the batteries are perfected and miniaturised they could probably go in the same size box as the fuel tank. 

 

4 hours ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

Yeah, thats why they only produce 30k+ cars a month in their first factory, and they can only bring factories online in a really ssssllllloooowwww 11 months (hint: yeah ... thats really "slow" ... like multiples fatser then their competitors).

And their cars are very poorly constructed "under the skin" ... that's why they only last 460k+ miles ... ah no, wait. Maybe not.

Whilst you might validly argue that their construction in and "on" the skin is not as good (and many ould agree) they are so "terrible" under the skin that they are capale of the likes of OTA updates.

And converting older cars is a massive fail (in terms of at-scale vehicle retrofitting) because the chassis has been refined and refined and refined again for an altogether very different layout.

Makes great sense on the micro scale and preservation and excellent art (too!) ... but 0 sense in terms of industrial scale.

30k a month is about 50% less than other producers so they are far behind.  460k miles is no big deal especially on a electric car less moving parts , plenty diesel Mercedes taxis running about with twice that or more still going.

no one is going to suggest converting current cars on a industrial scale, if there is a cut off date say 2035 to ban ICE cars off the road who would buy a brand new car after 2030 to have to crush it 5 years later unless they are very cheap leased cars. 

I suggest converting to old classics and possible future classics if they exist anymore. 

how do you know in the future the motor and batteries could not be distributed evenly on the chassis to match the old motor balancing ? suspension can always be changed so the car handles better.

My old Mercedes cls had air suspension and had many different modes depending on how you wanted to throw it around, every time you turned the ignition on it would self level anyway.  air setup systems are quite cheap to install Arnold is a good supplier for these. 

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15 hours ago, longgone said:

Tesla was always about battery tech

What, shoving laptop batteries in a box where they catch fire?

I've been looking at solar power and batteries for our next house, and there's no way I'd stick a Tesla battery in there because I don't want it to burn down. Some other manufacturers' batteries are much safer.

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I'm waiting eagerly for the new VW ID launch to put the money down. From a BIK perspective I think they make sense. Friend has a Tesla S. Lovely car. Great fun to drive. But the interior isn't what I'd expect from a 125k car. 

When the big car groups start to launch in numbers I think tesla will find it tough. I had a go in the Hyundai electric too. Just felt much better built than a tesla. 

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7 hours ago, MarkG said:

What, shoving laptop batteries in a box where they catch fire?

I've been looking at solar power and batteries for our next house, and there's no way I'd stick a Tesla battery in there because I don't want it to burn down. Some other manufacturers' batteries are much safer.

No reason to catch fire. Unless poor installation

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8 hours ago, MarkG said:

What, shoving laptop batteries in a box where they catch fire?

I've been looking at solar power and batteries for our next house, and there's no way I'd stick a Tesla battery in there because I don't want it to burn down. Some other manufacturers' batteries are much safer.

FUD, Teslas have a limited number fires. Full details here.

A car fire in the US (alone) every 3 minutes. The number of fires in Teslas in this context is way way way lower than the probability of a fire in any the majority of other vehicles on roads.

There are 13 recorded cases of fires in Tesla Model S and Tesla Model X. Not all of them have been proven to be a problem with the battery pack.

More significantly hundreds of thousands of Model 3s exist and extensively used worldwide ... and the number of reported fires in Model 3s? 0. Zero. Nadda. None. Nothing.

And one of the most famous Tesla fires was caused by a rupture in the battery pack after driving over debris at high speed. Plan on doing that with your home battery storage ... how?

"Some other manufacturers' batteries are much safer."

Misguided, misinformed, or over reacting ...  or ...a troll.

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3 hours ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

I'm waiting eagerly for the new VW ID launch to put the money down. From a BIK perspective I think they make sense. Friend has a Tesla S. Lovely car. Great fun to drive. But the interior isn't what I'd expect from a 125k car. 

When the big car groups start to launch in numbers I think tesla will find it tough. I had a go in the Hyundai electric too. Just felt much better built than a tesla. 

Tesla Model S in top spec is nowhere near 125k. Optioned to the max it is 106390 GBP:

image.thumb.png.3573ef4c90f64005c8051e0f703648af.png

And starting price is 72k.

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5 minutes ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

FUD, Teslas have a limited number fires. Full details here.

A car fire in the US (alone) every 3 minutes. The number of fires in Teslas in this context is way way way lower than the probability of a fire in any the majority of other vehicles on roads.

There are 13 recorded cases of fires in Tesla Model S and Tesla Model X. Not all of them have been proven to be a problem with the battery pack.

More significantly hundreds of thousands of Model 3s exist and extensively used worldwide ... and the number of reported fires in Model 3s? 0. Zero. Nadda. None. Nothing.

And one of the most famous Tesla fires was caused by a rupture in the battery pack after driving over debris at high speed. Plan on doing that with your home battery storage ... how?

"Some other manufacturers' batteries are much safer."

Misguided, misinformed, or over reacting ...  or ...a troll.

That is quite a lot of fires then.

 

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20 minutes ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

Tesla Model S in top spec is nowhere near 125k. Optioned to the max it is 106390 GBP:

image.thumb.png.3573ef4c90f64005c8051e0f703648af.png

And starting price is 72k.

lot of money for a fancy washing machine. 

ludicrous mode LOL 

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36 minutes ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

Tesla Model S in top spec is nowhere near 125k. Optioned to the max it is 106390 GBP:

image.thumb.png.3573ef4c90f64005c8051e0f703648af.png

And starting price is 72k.

It's a 100d. Honestly think he told me it was nearly 125k. 

 

Have they dropped the price in the past 2 years? 

Edited by 2buyornot2buy

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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