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Without a stake in society are we starting to see the youth becoming more dissatisfied with the world? 

Is it me or are we seeing a bit of an increase in mass protests around the world? 

france we have yellow vests protesting about fuel price increased (apparently they increased for environmental considerations?) and in the U.K. with have boards of hippies setting up camp and shutting down parts of London? 

 

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I was interested in the protests as I had to travel to a London hospital for a critical medical appointment and my travel plan was in jeopardy.  

Belong to Facebook groups for various things and the people who expressed the most interest and support were those who protested at other events (not climate change related).

There wasn't much interest in my nieces and nephews and  people at the protests or in my larger Facebook community . The people that I saw were very mixed ages and lots of alternative type clothing and hairstyles. Not sure what grassroots support there was for the protesters and Londoners I met weren't happy or supportive at all. 
 

Edited by Flopsy

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25 minutes ago, Flopsy said:

Londoners I met weren't happy or supportive at all. 

Londoners generally aren’t happy.

Jonathan Pie sums it up nicely

 

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Will just fizzle out, like the occupy movement... we need to protest smarter, Doug Stanhope has the right idea...

 

 

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USA and China need to change their economic model for there to be any progress...UK emissions don't come any where near. I wonder why these protesters don't go and protest in Beijing...

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9 minutes ago, Wayward said:

USA and China need to change their economic model for there to be any progress...UK emissions don't come any where near. I wonder why these protesters don't go and protest in Beijing...

That doesn't seem to be sinking in. I do know people who have made changes to their own lifestyle i.e. food, cars etc but when I try to talk about China producing / travelling or when Russia started travelling they weren't interested.

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20 minutes ago, Wayward said:

USA and China need to change their economic model for there to be any progress...UK emissions don't come any where near. I wonder why these protesters don't go and protest in Beijing...

Yep. It appears impossibly hard to actually reduce co2 production. Better global living standards equates to more energy use. Thus far, in economic usefulness, fossil fuels are the only game in town.

Try going to China, India or Africa and telling them to stop building schools and hospitals in order to afford cleaner energy and guess what their responses would be.

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5 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Yep. It appears impossibly hard to actually reduce co2 production. Better global living standards equates to more energy use. Thus far, in economic usefulness, fossil fuels are the only game in town.

Try going to China, India or Africa and telling them to stop building schools and hospitals in order to afford cleaner energy and guess what their responses would be.

Carbon dioxide emissions are way down in the United Kingdom from their highs but of course globally they increase all the time.

https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/trends/emis/tre_uki.html

No one is prepared to change their lifestyles. One of the protest leaders who was interviewed on Sky was exposed by Guido Fawkes as traveling to Pisa, Italy, taking a skiing trip and walking along palm tree lined beaches, yet he proposes that air travel only be used in emergencies.

I suspect the protestors view majority non white countries like the ones you listed as victims and so they will not criticise them.

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25 minutes ago, Wayward said:

USA and China need to change their economic model for there to be any progress...UK emissions don't come any where near. I wonder why these protesters don't go and protest in Beijing...

I think they have said these protests are more focused on raising awareness and changing public opinion. There is no point going to China because the Chinese leadership do not have to respond to public opinion, whereas they do in the West.

I think it's quite widely accepted that the developed world needs to cut it's emissions and the developing world needs to not allow emissions to grow. People who believe the next few years are crucial should not wait for other people or countries, but should do whatever they can to set a good example and try to persuade others.

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Whatever happens the direction has to come from the top.....what shouldn't happen is for those that can afford to do wrong are able to pay extra to do it......if it is that bad it should be banned for all.

Why pay 10p for a bad plastic bag when plastic bags should not be on offer if that bad for the planet.....pay 20p for a good bag or don't sell plastic bags.....if certain forms of transport are better than others, make the good types affordable......if trains and buses are better than petrol and diesel cars, make it that there are enough of them at the right places, going to the right places, at the right price, scrapping good bad cars that took energy to make is a silly idea making stuff to destroy defeats the object..... make white goods, phones and any other high energy to make and hard do dispose of repairable and made to last a lot longer than they do now...saving the planet conflicts with capitalism and consumerism.;)

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Yes to all this.

It's been recognised that climate scientists themselves have high carbon footprints, which is of course hypocrisy and being recognised as such

There's the https://noflyclimatesci.org which is pushing for change in this particular arena.

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30 minutes ago, Uncle_Kenny said:

No one is prepared to change their lifestyles. One of the protest leaders who was interviewed on Sky was exposed by Guido Fawkes as traveling to Pisa, Italy, taking a skiing trip and walking along palm tree lined beaches, yet he proposes that air travel only be used in emergencies.

If he is trying only to persuade individuals to change their mind and hence their consumption, he is indeed acting hypocritically. But if he is hoping this leads to a change in policy (e.g. perhaps flights are rationed or taxed so heavily that the demand for them falls drastically) then it is not hypocritical, as his ability to fly will be constrained along with everyone else. 

 

Similarly I think a land value tax is a good idea. Am I a hypocrite for not volunteering the amount I think I should be taxed?

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3 hours ago, jiltedjen said:

Without a stake in society are we starting to see the youth becoming more dissatisfied with the world? 

Is it me or are we seeing a bit of an increase in mass protests around the world? 

france we have yellow vests protesting about fuel price increased (apparently they increased for environmental considerations?) and in the U.K. with have boards of hippies setting up camp and shutting down parts of London? 

 

This will be the new normal. Take action and protest. There is simply no point in voting as your vote means shit and the establishment will follow the agenda they want anyway. Good on them I say. 

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9 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

If he is trying only to persuade individuals to change their mind and hence their consumption, he is indeed acting hypocritically. But if he is hoping this leads to a change in policy (e.g. perhaps flights are rationed or taxed so heavily that the demand for them falls drastically) then it is not hypocritical, as his ability to fly will be constrained along with everyone else. 

 

Similarly I think a land value tax is a good idea. Am I a hypocrite for not volunteering the amount I think I should be taxed?

Taxing something that is bad will only increase inequality.......only the wealthy will have access to what we at the moment have access to.......for the rich paying extra for what they want will make them feel superior over others, you plebs can't afford to do all the things that we can do to destroy your world,  we can afford to pay extra to do it....stay in your holes, you are not only priced out of a home, you will be priced out of travel and all the nice things that are bad for the planet that we can do because we are worth it.;)

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1 minute ago, winkie said:

Taxing something that is bad will only increase inequality

Only if it's a very low tax. If it's high enough it will also reduce demand.

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13 minutes ago, winkie said:

Taxing something that is bad will only increase inequality.......only the wealthy will have access to what we at the moment have access to.......for the rich paying extra for what they want will make them feel superior over others, you plebs can't afford to do all the things that we can do to destroy your world,  we can afford to pay extra to do it....stay in your holes, you are not only priced out of a home, you will be priced out of travel and all the nice things that are bad for the planet that we can do because we are worth it.;)

I remember watching a article about the London congestion charge and some well healed Aston Martin driving bloake asking for £100 a day emissions charge.

His view was there would be less people on the road and the rich can drive about without traffic.

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1 minute ago, Kosmin said:

Only if it's a very low tax. If it's high enough it will also reduce demand.

Still wrong.......the world needs people and goods to travel......why Brexit means we will have goods and people traveling from further afield from all over the world on dirty ships and planes.....clean the planes and ships not price people out of foreign goods and travel, pull the poor up not let the wealthy get away with ruining it for people yet to be born .......by the way I am happy to adapt, and stay local, grow local, cut down on consumption, do things differently......save a fortune without meaning to.;)

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Just now, winkie said:

Still wrong....

Tax on essentials and things which are a small proportion of household expenditures do not typically reduce demand much. For example, a 10% tax on sugar or alcohol can be afforded by household budgets.

But if air flight was taxed such that every flight cost at least £1,000 or £10,000 surely you must admit that this would not ONLY increase inequality. It would mean that the top few percent could still fly occasionally if they really prioritised, but the majority would not fly at all. Hence a massive reduction in flying.

4 minutes ago, winkie said:

the world needs people and goods to travel

People travelled before flight and people survived when travel was much more limited. I don't know all of the consequences of a draconian restriction on flights and I'm not particularly advocating it. Maybe such a reduction wouldn't be desirable, but clearly it's possible.

 

6 minutes ago, winkie said:

clean the planes and ships not price people out of foreign goods and travel

I gather there isn't a prospect of this happening soon. If flights and cruises etc. were restricted until they became greener, it would provide a better incentive!

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So how do you think ordinary people would travel to visit other places in the world if a flight cost £1k or more?

Inequality would increase, many countries that rely on tourism including the UK would suffer......only the wealthy could see the world, their families and friends in other places.....there would be huge resentments and repercussions.....;)

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2 minutes ago, winkie said:

So how do you think ordinary people would travel to visit other places in the world if a flight cost £1k or more?

Inequality would increase, many countries that rely on tourism including the UK would suffer......only the wealthy could see the world, their families and friends in other places.....there would be huge resentments and repercussions.....;)

I don't dispute any of that. Remember the context though. It is widely accepted that temperatures will rise several degrees. There are millions of people already living in countries where it is almost too hot for humans to survive. If temperatures rise several degrees there will be migration to dwarf any previous movement of humans. More worrying is the possibility that if temperatures rise several degrees a positive feedback is created due to the thawing of the permafrost, unleashing vast amounts of gas. I don't think there is consensus on whether this will happen, but if it does it's worried that the entire Earth will heat up and become uninhabitable.

 

I realise there will be resentment. I think it's really pathetic that people like Leonardo de Caprio and Al Gore are responsible for enormous emissions. So what if they "offset" that by planting millions of trees. They have the resources to do so. They should plant the trees and lead a more normal life, eschewing private jets and the like. But if they don't, that doesn't make the problem disappear.

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54 minutes ago, winkie said:

So how do you think ordinary people would travel to visit other places in the world if a flight cost £1k or more?

Inequality would increase, many countries that rely on tourism including the UK would suffer......only the wealthy could see the world, their families and friends in other places.....there would be huge resentments and repercussions.....;)

today..... only the wealthy can see the world already..... there aren't many e.g. Indians & Africans who can afford to fly to London. ;)

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1 hour ago, highYield said:

today..... only the wealthy can see the world already..... there aren't many e.g. Indians & Africans who can afford to fly to London. ;)

They Are not missing out on much.

Bring a stab vest :rolleyes:

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  • 292 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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