Si1 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 it's good for the yoof to make political statements, but I'm not really sure that the recent protests and day strike off school really carries much weight - no real sacrifices have been made for their political position, even though they are of course perfectly entitled to their voices. What real sacrifices will they be prepared to make, when they are working and earning and voting? What sacrifices will they make now to prove they're serious? Do they speak for far more people than themselves? https://news.sky.com/story/dear-teacher-im-missing-class-to-save-the-planet-11635913 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlooker Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, Si1 said: it's good for the yoof to make political statements, but I'm not really sure that the recent protests and day strike off school really carries much weight - no real sacrifices have been made for their political position, even though they are of course perfectly entitled to their voices. What real sacrifices will they be prepared to make, when they are working and earning and voting? What sacrifices will they make now to prove they're serious? Do they speak for far more people than themselves? https://news.sky.com/story/dear-teacher-im-missing-class-to-save-the-planet-11635913 Why did they have to bunk off school? Why not march on a Saturday morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledgehead Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Yay, save the planet ... but only after I've had my fill of fast fashion. Yay, save the planet ... but only after I've got the foreign holiday snaps to adorn my profile. Yay, save the planet ... but I'll still need a new phone at least every 18 months. Yay, save the planet ... but give me a lift to school in the Chelsea tractor. Yay, listen to us, we're grown up enough to know our own minds. Yay, give us the vote on Brexit, cos I wanna burn jet fuel 6 times a year when I go to uni. Nay, don't listen to me, I was only a 15 year old baby when I ran off to join ISIS. I was groomed. What do kids know about anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougless Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 I thought it was great and I hope they carry on. Its the younger generation that will have to deal with the mess we have made of things. It shows they are questioning their 'olders and betters' which has to be healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, onlooker said: Why did they have to bunk off school? Why not march on a Saturday morning? Why not march to school instead of getting driven there? How many of them are doing that... 1 hour ago, dougless said: I thought it was great and I hope they carry on. Its the younger generation that will have to deal with the mess we have made of things. It shows they are questioning their 'olders and betters' which has to be healthy. Ask them to give up their modern toys and see how long they'll keep it up for. I see one going on about plastic, wonder how much plastic they use themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 7 hours ago, Riedquat said: Why not march to school instead of getting driven there? How many of them are doing that... Ask them to give up their modern toys and see how long they'll keep it up for. I see one going on about plastic, wonder how much plastic they use themselves. I lean in your direction here. I suspect in practice they're not actually willing to give up that much. But I hope I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kirk Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 10 hours ago, dougless said: I thought it was great and I hope they carry on. Its the younger generation that will have to deal with the mess we have made of things. It shows they are questioning their 'olders and betters' which has to be healthy. They aren't the first and won't be the last. But I think we all need to contribute to cleaning up plastics from the environment since we've all benefited from them. As for burning fossil fuels, oil spillage is more of an issue for me, so moving away from oil is probably a good thing. Our contribution to climate change is negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougless Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Captain Kirk said: Our contribution to climate change is negligible. I hope you are correct but fear you aren't. Are you aware of the temperature increases in North America when they banned civil aviation for three days after 9/11? The contrails left by high flying aircraft create an atmospheric blanket that reflects some heat away from the ground. Remove the contrails and suddenly we warm up faster BUT if we carry on with our excessive use of jet aircraft we will cause longer term damage in the high atmosphere; a bit of a conundrum that one. There is plenty of information about this, here is an example: https://globalnews.ca/news/2934513/empty-skies-after-911-set-the-stage-for-an-unlikely-climate-change-experiment/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kirk Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 53 minutes ago, dougless said: I hope you are correct but fear you aren't. Are you aware of the temperature increases in North America when they banned civil aviation for three days after 9/11? The contrails left by high flying aircraft create an atmospheric blanket that reflects some heat away from the ground. Remove the contrails and suddenly we warm up faster BUT if we carry on with our excessive use of jet aircraft we will cause longer term damage in the high atmosphere; a bit of a conundrum that one. There is plenty of information about this, here is an example: https://globalnews.ca/news/2934513/empty-skies-after-911-set-the-stage-for-an-unlikely-climate-change-experiment/ So the water vapour contrails have been causing global cooling? What longer term damage would excessive use of jet aircraft cause in the high atmosphere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougless Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 26 minutes ago, Captain Kirk said: So the water vapour contrails have been causing global cooling? What longer term damage would excessive use of jet aircraft cause in the high atmosphere? I am not an atmospheric scientist but apparently high flying jet aircraft are highly damaging to the atmosphere. You are burning large quantities of kerosene (think of a 747's tanks holding as much as 1/18th of an Olympic sized swimming pool) high up in the atmosphere and the resultant high level smog is not an inert or benign concoction. It was once explained to me that a single passenger flight across the Atlantic equals the damage the average car does in a year so one flight equals perhaps 400 cars worth of pollution. If you scale that up you realise just how damaging aviation is. Lower flying turbo-prop aircraft are however relatively benign when set against our impact on the environment, but they are slower and fly though, rather than above, weather systems so they are less popular with airlines and passengers. In addition to this, as far as I know, there are no turbo-prop aircraft the equivalent of a long range, large passenger carrying jets so that option is not available to long distance travelers. The cooling caused by high flying jet aircraft is now thought to be so significant that a sudden cessation would cause a measurable spike in global temperature which would add to our already warmer climate, whatever has been the cause of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledgehead Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 15 hours ago, dougless said: I thought it was great and I hope they carry on. Its the younger generation that will have to deal with the mess we have made of things. It shows they are questioning their 'olders and betters' which has to be healthy. What utter rubbish. You clearly don't know any millenials or you wouldn't say such things. My nephew and niece fly so frequently (we all know why - surely?) they must either have the red blood cell count of an olympian or dvt. And while we worry about which bin to put our waste in, they are busy clearing the supermarket isles of blister-packed ready meals and single-use Halloween junk / ironic Xmas sweaters etc. We are told we must fret about microplastics whilst they buy stuff like this: and this: And again, it's all for the 'profile'. Get 'em to ditch their social media accounts and we might stand a chance. Otherwise, stop blaming previous generations who did the damage in the name of prosperity rather than vanity. Fact is, as soon as any of these kids have more money than needed to fill up the oceans with micro-pastics, they spend it on something equally dubious: eg, the new diesel car my millenial reli just bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kirk Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, dougless said: It was once explained to me that a single passenger flight across the Atlantic equals the damage the average car does in a year so one flight equals perhaps 400 cars worth of pollution. I guess reducing pollutants like NOx is not a bad idea. Not sure I buy the arguments around water vapour and CO2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougless Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Sledgehead said: What utter rubbish. You clearly don't know any millenials or you wouldn't say such things. My nephew and niece fly so frequently (we all know why - surely?) they must either have the red blood cell count of an olympian or dvt. And while we worry about which bin to put our waste in, they are busy clearing the supermarket isles of blister-packed ready meals and single-use Halloween junk / ironic Xmas sweaters etc. We are told we must fret about microplastics whilst they buy stuff like this: and this: And again, it's all for the 'profile'. Get 'em to ditch their social media accounts and we might stand a chance. Otherwise, stop blaming previous generations who did the damage in the name of prosperity rather than vanity. Fact is, as soon as any of these kids have more money than needed to fill up the oceans with micro-pastics, they spend it on something equally dubious: eg, the new diesel car my millenial reli just bought. I agree that many young people seem completely unconcerned by anything beyond their current profile, however clearly these demonstrations, by young people, have gained some traction which I see as a positive thing. Most people living in developed countries contribute to pollution, its just that some of us have a greater environmental impact than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledgehead Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 38 minutes ago, dougless said: I agree that many young people seem completely unconcerned by anything beyond their current profile, however clearly these demonstrations, by young people, have gained some traction which I see as a positive thing. Most people living in developed countries contribute to pollution, its just that some of us have a greater environmental impact than others. Yes, they do, and it's the younger generations. Whether it's fast fashion, Starbucks single use cups, Just-Eat callouts, vinyl (when we gave them downloads ffs) or a myriad other vanities and conveniences, they just don't seem to know when to stop. And who is responsible? Influencers who, likewise, are in their nappies - and frankly there's another example. Successive generations don't get more worthy, they get less so. Previous generations re-used nappies rather than buy disposables. Previous generations grew their own(less air miles). Now they want it all pre-washed and packaged and flown in. And now "the young" tell us Brexit is unworkable because of the burden of customs as car parts cross the channel etc multiple times before a car rolls off the production line. If "the young" were that concerned about "the planet", they'd be protesting about car-part-miles, rather than moaning about the increased bureaucatic burden of holidaying in Europe - which an environmentally concerned person probably shouldn't be doing anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Wish we got jollies like this when I was at school. We'd have been out 'striking' any chance we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 14 minutes ago, Sledgehead said: Yes, they do, and it's the younger generations. Whether it's fast fashion, Starbucks single use cups, Just-Eat callouts, vinyl (when we gave them downloads ffs) or a myriad other vanities and conveniences, The download's the convenience, not the vinyl. As long as it isn't listened to once or twice then binned that sort of plastic use isn't much of a problem (less than the wrapper it probably comes in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButter Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 17 hours ago, dougless said: I thought it was great and I hope they carry on. Its the younger generation that will have to deal with the mess we have made of things. It shows they are questioning their 'olders and betters' which has to be healthy. +1 Lots of people on here complain about boomers (benefited from rising house prices and free education and great pensions, pulled up the ladder etc) or millennials (slackers, whiners etc) but here's a generation actually making a noise about something that will affect them and ONLY them and they're met with a chorus of tuts and grumbling. Count yourself lucky you didn't need to strike as a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledgehead Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 36 minutes ago, PeanutButter said: +1 Lots of people on here complain about boomers (benefited from rising house prices and free education and great pensions, pulled up the ladder etc) or millennials (slackers, whiners etc) but here's a generation actually making a noise about something that will affect them and ONLY them and they're met with a chorus of tuts and grumbling. Count yourself lucky you didn't need to strike as a child. Can you hear yourself? "Didn't have to strike"? Wot? No lack of votes for women? No world wars and all-but-forced conscription? No back-street abortions? No Vietnam? No Cuban Missile Crisis and Cold War? No CND? And I'll tell you something else for nothing: all those CND protesters weren't building missiles in their back garden. They weren't part of the problem. Can you say that about these protesting kids? Show me one who wouldn't have a dog if you gave them the chance, despite the fact pets chuck out as much in emissions as the average family car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButter Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 23 minutes ago, Sledgehead said: Can you hear yourself? "Didn't have to strike"? Wot? No lack of votes for women? No world wars and all-but-forced conscription? No back-street abortions? No Vietnam? No Cuban Missile Crisis and Cold War? No CND? And I'll tell you something else for nothing: all those CND protesters weren't building missiles in their back garden. They weren't part of the problem. Can you say that about these protesting kids? Show me one who wouldn't have a dog if you gave them the chance, despite the fact pets chuck out as much in emissions as the average family car. Oh the vitriol! I personally never striked as a child, did you? What did you strike for? Votes for women or back street abortions? I think you're confusing issues that impact SOME people with an issue that will impact (and IS IMPACTING) all people. It's called climate change and not one of these children is immune to it. As for your dog emissions theory, 163 million US dogs and cats = 13.6 million cars, therefore 1 dog ≠ 1 car Quote All that meat has important consequences. Okin calculated that meat-eating by dogs and cats creates the equivalent of about 64 million tons of carbon dioxide a year, which has about the same climate impact as a year’s worth of driving from 13.6 million cars. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-cats-and-dogs-environmental-impact But sure, I'll conduct a survey of all the striking children just to make sure they know to decline future free dog offers lest they be accused of hypocrisy on the house price crash forum You've done nothing to convince me that supporting children striking to bring attention to this issue is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Sledgehead said: Previous generations re-used nappies rather than buy disposables. Previous generations grew their own(less air miles). 1 I empathise with you a lot but also some of your facts are just wrong - disposable nappies have about the same energy cost as washing your own reusable nappies - except when compared to using a tumble dryer for the reusable ones when the disposable ones become far more environmentally friendly. This includes the measured environmental costs of energy use for production and shipping and also of landfill. And food miles are often much cheaper than the cost of growing food inefficiently in an inappropriate climate or manner; it is not more environmentally friendly to grow your own compared to a high-efficiency massive greenhouse facility a few hundred miles away (uses less energy, water, chemicals per unit), the shipping process is pretty low-cost environmental terms in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, PeanutButter said: +1 Lots of people on here complain about boomers (benefited from rising house prices and free education and great pensions, pulled up the ladder etc) or millennials (slackers, whiners etc) but here's a generation actually making a noise about something that will affect them and ONLY them and they're met with a chorus of tuts and grumbling. Count yourself lucky you didn't need to strike as a child. there's a fair point there - most people don't grasp the enormous sacrifices necessary in order to get a grip on climate change. A classic example is the comfy middle classes who consider (and I've seen this quoted a number of times as pretty common) that owning an estate car, using the green recycling bin and taking the dogs for walks ion the countryside makes you 'green'. The fact is, that an Aga cooker and at least two foreign holidays with flights per year, makes you among the most polluting human beings to have ever existed on the face of the planet. But they can't see that and think it's ok to be concerned and recycle their coke cans. Go on anti-fracking marches etc. Something should be done we need to stop climate change. Oh by the way we've just bought a runabout for the wife. These aren't bad people, it's just that either (1) they don't REALLY give a sh*t and it's just an extension of their social-life or (2) they just aren't interested in really engaging with their real concerns. As to the kiddiwinks going on strike, yeah it's good but I suggest they need to start collaborating to reduce private car-transport dropping them off at school, maybe choose veggie options at school dinners (lower CO2 cost from farm production), have less posh consumer tat, persuade parents to holiday domestically from now on. If they do that en masse then I'll be impressed, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/news/celebrity-climate-hypocrites.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/7488832/My-aga-love-affair-is-cooling.html Tessa Glass, a mother of two, who has an Aga in her second home (another eco crime) in Sussex refuses to believe she is an Aga lout, wilfully helping sea levels rise, all so she can scoff perfect Yorkshire puddings. “But Aga owners are green,” she protests. “They’re the kind of people who love the country and have dogs. Apart from the footballers’ wives, that is.” She’s taken aback when I explain that flying to New York twice a year would cause less devastation to the rain forests. “La la la, not listening,” she cries. Not listening, indeed. The list of celebrity Aga owners who also profess to be eco warriors makes hilarious reading. Sting and Trudie Styler lecture us about the Amazon but – natch – they own one. Prince Charles is forever warning us of climate Armageddon but his wife, Camilla Parker Bowles, “wouldn’t cook on anything else.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/9284276/Will.I.Am-attends-climate-change-talk-in-helicoper.html Will.I.Am attends climate change talk in helicopter Musician Will.I.Am has been criticised for arriving at a climate change debate in a private helicopter, producing the same amount of CO2 most people do in a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 58 minutes ago, Si1 said: And food miles are often much cheaper than the cost of growing food inefficiently in an inappropriate climate or manner; it is not more environmentally friendly to grow your own compared to a high-efficiency massive greenhouse facility a few hundred miles away (uses less energy, water, chemicals per unit), the shipping process is pretty low-cost environmental terms in this respect. Until relatively recent-ish time almost all food eaten here was grown here. There are obvious issues with that - less variety, greater risk of crop failure (a bit all eggs in one basket), and it was during times when the population was much smaller but it in terms of environmentally friendly it wasn't an issue at all, at least once we got past the forest clearance stage, which was long before now (later it was the industrial uses for wood rather than clearing for food that shrunk forests futher). "Don't have kids" is the most you can do. Far better than not getting on the plane every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Si1 said: As to the kiddiwinks going on strike, yeah it's good but I suggest they need to start collaborating to reduce private car-transport dropping them off at school, maybe choose veggie options at school dinners (lower CO2 cost from farm production), have less posh consumer tat, persuade parents to holiday domestically from now on. If they do that en masse then I'll be impressed, But that's exactly what they're talking about! One hamburger = three months of showering. 100% renewable is 100% doable. AOC's Green New Deal. They need no encouragment to start digging in the dirt, are more likely to be Vegan than not, and they're instinctively aware of the shortcomings of capitalism because economic failure and austerity is all they've ever known growing up. Little wonder the mansplainers of the status quo have reacted with such alarm! Quote Students in the UK are demanding the government declares a climate emergency and takes active steps to tackle the problem, communicates the severity of the ecological crisis to the public and reforms the curriculum to make it an educational priority. That feeling was echoed by A-level student Poppy Flack, 17, carrying a placard saying: “Science not Silence.” “We’re here because we don’t think enough is being done to prevent climate change,” she said. “I’m afraid for my future. It is not sustainable to keep on living the way we are. We’re not going to have anywhere to live.” Anatoli Kamani, 14, from Latymer School in Hammersmith, who was wearing his uniform and carrying a banner simply saying “STOP IT”, said, “I’m here to protest government inaction on climate change. We’ve got about 12 years before the Earth becomes a mess and I think the government isn’t doing enough.” https://www.newscientist.com/article/2194067-the-children-striking-over-climate-change-speak-to-new-scientist/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.