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Electric checks in rented homes confirmed by government

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11 minutes ago, winkie said:

Never paid monthly premium for a boiler service.....I have worked it out better off putting the money away would have paid and using it to pay for any repair if need be in the future....local reliable and trustworthy  tradesman of course.....many years later not needed, but plenty enough now to pay for it, the sum keeps on growing and the boiler keeps on going.;)

The £50 wasn't monthly premium, it was for the boiler service which is recommended to be done annually for modern condensing boilers.

I would tend to agree with you for older boilers but have been advised to get this one serviced at least every two years as I believe they need cleaning and setting up to maintain maximum efficiency.  

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The £50 wasn't monthly premium, it was for the boiler service which is recommended to be done annually for modern condensing boilers.

I would tend to agree with you for older boilers but have been advised to get this one serviced at least every two years as I believe they need cleaning and setting up to maintain maximum efficiency.  

I now have the older type boiler again no problems whatsoever.....before I made the mistake of ripping out a brilliant boiler that gave me no problems to put in a combi new style boiler, biggest mistake....very happy now that am back to having the old style, better made, more reliable one and money saving over the long-term.....:)

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11 minutes ago, winkie said:

I now have the older type boiler again no problems whatsoever.....before I made the mistake of ripping out a brilliant boiler that gave me no problems to put in a combi new style boiler, biggest mistake....very happy now that am back to having the old style, better made, more reliable one and money saving over the long-term.....:)

I had one of those. At twenty years old it started knocking so I rolled up my sleeves, stripped it down to it's component parts, cleaned it thoroughly, reassembled and added some inhibitor... Good for another twenty years.

Boilers are a bit like cars. Old ones you can easily DIY, but new ones need the correct computer interface and software.

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4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

I had one of those. At twenty years old it started knocking so I rolled up my sleeves, stripped it down to it's component parts, cleaned it thoroughly, reassembled and added some inhibitor... Good for another twenty years.

Boilers are a bit like cars. Old ones you can easily DIY, but new ones need the correct computer interface and software.

Sometimes I think we make things on purpose so that they require permanent servicing and have a shorter life span....great for the economy, keeps people employed, keeps people spending extra to upgrade......until it is no longer an upgrade it is a nuisance, a liability and an ongoing cost...;)

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14 minutes ago, winkie said:

Sometimes I think we make things on purpose so that they require permanent servicing and have a shorter life span....great for the economy, keeps people employed, keeps people spending extra to upgrade......until it is no longer an upgrade it is a nuisance, a liability and an ongoing cost...;)

To be fair, I think it's all about fossil fuels and carbon footprint. Take modern jet engines, fiendishly complicated but oh so efficient.

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

To be fair, I think it's all about fossil fuels and carbon footprint. Take modern jet engines, fiendishly complicated but oh so efficient.

So ripping out something that works perfectly well, dispose of it in land fill, to use carbon and energy to make a new product using steel that will have to be replaced more frequently.....that is not saving the planet.;)

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More to the point, I remember in the 80s watching a sparky wire up the earth to the new extension on my parents house to the copper water pipes. I thought it was standard to take the mains earth from the water pipes? If there is a faulty appliance the theory is the current should drain to earth via the water pipe.

Why just rented houses yes, and nanny state

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5 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

Perhaps all the ones you do that particular work for, but I have never received an electrical test and inspection, nor a legionella cert. all of the gas certs I have received expire on the anniversary of the last test, not the start of the tenancy.

I'll concur with Bruce on that.

During all my years of tenancies with various landlords/ agencies I have only received the following at the start/ finish or during the tenancy.

Gas - 12 month gas safety check. Yes every time. The form is standard with copy pages to tenant/ landlord/ engineer.

Electric - 12 month  portable appliance inspection & test * - Yes every time.

* Fridge/ Washing Machine/ Kettle etc - If supplied by landlord. As far as I know this does not cover the wiring installation of the house itself?

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1 hour ago, bear.getting.old said:

 I thought it was standard to take the mains earth from the water pipes? If there is a faulty appliance the theory is the current should drain to earth via the water pipe.

Yes when a house could be bought for 10 groats and a mule.

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8 minutes ago, bear.getting.old said:

The 90s were the same and prices were cheap, but not that cheap!

What has changed in wiring now then?

He was probably connecting the pipes to earth, not taking an earth from them.

Google TN-C-S and TN-S 

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3 hours ago, chronyx said:

I meant to tell them that they've done enough and can now stop :lol: Joe Public is happy

Up until now they thought a 300mA RCD was suitable for fire protection in agricultural installations (So I assume hay, straw, etc).  Brown envelopes from electrical equipment manufacturers? Who knows.

If they want to do more, they can make the case for why this is the best way of spending other peoples money on improving safety. It wouldn't be top of, or even on, my list.

NB As a CEng, I am not sure I would qualify as representing Joe Public's view. 

 

Edited by Confusion of VIs

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2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

If they want to do more, they can make the case for why this is the best way of spending other peoples money on improving safety. It wouldn't be top of, or even on, my list.

 

 

Yes but they get to sell me a new regs book and on site guide.  £100 a pop.  Since 2008 we've had two new editions and 3 amendments. Ker-ching.

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6 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I would support regulation that mandates updating/replacing wiring that does not have RCD protection on all of the circuits or has pre PVC insulation but once that's done its safe enough. 

   

I was volunteered into fitting a new light fitting in relatives' house with rubber cable, I'd heard of it but had never actually seen it before.  It was not nice stuff at all, not crumbly (yet, but degrading), but nothing like as strong as modern PVC.

They also have the fuse wire fusebox.  They know it desperately all needs ripping out, but they've spent their lives making the place how they want it, so don't want chased out channels all over the place, together with the dust and mess.

I might see if the fusebox can be replaced with a modern RCD consumer unit though.  At least that way they'd be safe(r) if something did end up live that shouldn't be, e.g. a screw on a light switch etc.  My worry is that it would open a can of worms, and any electrician might refuse to connect to the circuits.

There must be countless houses all over the country just like this.  It's not ridiculously old, built in the 1960s, all looks pretty modern really.  All fairly standard looking square pin sockets and lightswitches, just the same dimensions as current ones.  Some of the switches are quite squidgy feeling, but I bet many householders have replaced the faceplates and made it look totally modern, while keeping the rubber cable.

There's probably a good number of rented homes in a similar state - presentable to the untrained eye but potentially lethal.

Edited by Tes Tickle

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5 minutes ago, Tes Tickle said:

I was volunteered into fitting a new light fitting in relatives' house with rubber cable, I'd heard of it but had never actually seen it before.  It was not nice stuff at all, not crumbly (yet, but degrading), but nothing like as strong as modern PVC.

They also have the fuse wire fusebox.  They know it desperately all needs ripping out, but they've spent their lives making the place how they want it, so don't want chased out channels all over the place, together with the dust and mess.

I might see if the fusebox can be replaced with a modern RCD consumer unit though.  At least that way they'd be safe(r) if something did end up live that shouldn't be, e.g. a screw on a light switch etc.  My worry is that it would open a can of worms, and any electrician might refuse to connect to the circuits.

There must be countless houses all over the country just like this.  It's not ridiculously old, built in the 1960s, all looks pretty modern really.  All fairly standard looking square pin sockets and lightswitches, just the same dimensions as current ones.  Some of the switches are quite squidgy feeling, but I bet many householders have replaced the faceplates and made it look totally modern, while keeping the rubber cable.

There's probably a good number of rented homes in a similar state - presentable to the untrained eye but potentially lethal.

That sounds like our house (I had it rewired as part of a full renovation a couple of years ago) all modern looking switches/sockets but very ancient wiring. 

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Hmmm I wonder what the spec of the old 60s cable is, my guess is that its not that bad as they often seem to have made things better in the old days. For example old plasterboard seems thicker and stronger compared to modern stuff. If the cable was rated for high current capacity then all good.

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16 minutes ago, Tes Tickle said:

 

I might see if the fusebox can be replaced with a modern RCD consumer unit though.  At least that way they'd be safe(r) if something did end up live that shouldn't be, e.g. a screw on a light switch etc.  My worry is that it would open a can of worms, and any electrician might refuse to connect to the circuits.

Yes a consumer unit change means that the sparky becomes responsible for the connected circuits.

A reputable sparky wouldn't entertain the idea.

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Just now, bear.getting.old said:

Hmmm I wonder what the spec of the old 60s cable is, my guess is that its not that bad as they often seem to have made things better in the old days. For example old plasterboard seems thicker and stronger compared to modern stuff. If the cable was rated for high current capacity then all good.

Nothing to do with current rating.  The sheathing and insulation is rubber and eventually goes brittle, and falls off. Lethal stuff now, fine when new.

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28 minutes ago, chronyx said:

Nothing to do with current rating.  The sheathing and insulation is rubber and eventually goes brittle, and falls off. Lethal stuff now, fine when new.

A little bit, surely, if the cable is running cooler?

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Just now, Bruce Banner said:

A little bit, surely, if the cable is running cooler?

 

ok mate.jpg

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48 minutes ago, chronyx said:

 

ok mate.jpg

Exactly why you chose to reply to my, perfectly polite, question with a picture of yourself pulling a strange face is beyond me, but never mind

In my experience, cable insulation degrades faster the more temperature cycles it is subjected to, so I agree with bear.getting.old that conservatively rated cable is likely to remain in a serviceable condition for longer.

But what do I know, I've only worked with little cables up to 120mm2. We used solid copper bar beyond that.

Edited by Bruce Banner

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37 minutes ago, chronyx said:

Yes a consumer unit change means that the sparky becomes responsible for the connected circuits.

A reputable sparky wouldn't entertain the idea.

I see the logic but, on the other hand, dodgy cabling with RCDs is much safer than dodgy cabling without RCDs.  That is, if you accept that the oldies' decor can not be touched.

She'd be on at him to make everything pristine straight after, he's already got a serious heart condition.  The combination of stress, work and nagging would tip him over the edge.  Honestly, a re-wire could kill him, in fact it would be more of a risk than the dodgy electrics.

I did swap out a really nasty crunchy light switch for a new one.  I was amazed to see that the back box was wood.  I suppose at least that reduces the risk of a bare wire making a screw live though!

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

In my experience, cable insulation degrades faster the more temperature cycles it is subjected to, so I agree with bear.getting.old that conservatively rated cable is likely to remain in a serviceable condition for longer.

But what do I know, I've only worked with little cables up to 120mm2. We used solid copper bar beyond that.

The 1960s stuff I saw was not nice at all.  At first I was very confused as I found a brown cable, i.e. the present day colour scheme since 2008.  After cutting into it I saw that it was red inside, the outer surface had decayed and turned brown.

This was just the switched cable to a single light fitting, it had never seen more than a 60W load.  The decay was from the outside of the insulation, not from the inside as you'd expect from heat damage.  Just nature taking back the tree sap it was made from using the wonder of biology.

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37 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Exactly why you chose to reply to my, perfectly polite, question with a picture of yourself pulling a strange face, but never mind

In my experience, cable insulation degrades faster the more temperature cycles it is subjected to, so I agree with bear.getting.old that conservatively rated cable is likely to remain in a serviceable condition for longer.

But what do I know, I've only worked with little cables up to 120mm2. We used solid copper bar beyond that.

Because you're being obtuse.  I don't care what size cables you've worked with.  

If you want to argue the pros and cons of degraded VIR cable with failed insulation with the NICEIC or the other governing bodies then crack on.

I've had VIR insulation on lighting circuit pendants (4 in total - so 400W max total - an insignificant load) fall apart as soon as I touched the cores.

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3 minutes ago, chronyx said:

Because you're being obtuse.  I don't care what size cables you've worked with.  

If you want to argue the pros and cons of degraded VIR cable with failed insulation with the NICEIC or the other governing bodies then crack on.

I've had VIR insulation on lighting circuit pendants (4 in total - so 400W max total - an insignificant load) fall apart as soon as I touched the cores.

Another keyboard warrior who seems to think that rudeness is a virtue.

Okay, you know best... crack on... :rolleyes:.

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