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'And the average local authority secondary school debt is £483,000'

From BBC news site.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46826990

 

Does anyone know if this debt is held by individual schools, and if so does it appear on the national debt figure 

I once spoke to a Naval officer who told me every boat had its own overdraft facility.

If it does not appear in the national  debt figure, you have to wonder how many other goverment bodies are disguising the debt.

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On 16/01/2019 at 00:28, lie to bet said:

'And the average local authority secondary school debt is £483,000'

From BBC news site.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46826990

 

Does anyone know if this debt is held by individual schools, and if so does it appear on the national debt figure 

I once spoke to a Naval officer who told me every boat had its own overdraft facility.

If it does not appear in the national  debt figure, you have to wonder how many other goverment bodies are disguising the debt.

If they go bust, the government picks up the tab.

So it is Government debt.

I suspect this is why moves have been made to create Management groupings. It is easier to hide the facts and keep plates spinning if you pay a few “professional managers” a big salary to keep quiet and shuffle resources. Trouble is when one of those groups goes down it will be big.

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On 16/01/2019 at 00:28, lie to bet said:

I once spoke to a Naval officer who told me every boat had its own overdraft facility.

This is sinking to a new low. What happens to ships which are drowning in debt? 

They can't expect it to go swimmingly forever. Servicing those overdrafts can't be smooth sailing! 

It's gonna be rough seas for the economy with the storm clouds looming.

Perhaps this is the high tide mark for this country

Edited by Locke

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I can speak with a bit of experience on school funding.

Schools are meant to keep within their annual budget, but I do not think that if they run into deficit that it is actual borrowing, say from a banking, but rather from the reserves of the local authority, so it is not really additional public borrowing in the normal sense of the word.

One thing that may have led to this was a re-jig of school funding a couple of years ago. While there was no change in the overall amount of funding going into schools, the funding formula changed. Some schools got more, some got less. The new formula is fairer in that schools get typically a similar amount of funding per pupil wherever they are. Before there was more variability.

However, changes to budget are quite hard to react to - salaried staff cannot be easily dismissed so it can be tricky to bring a budget down if it falls rapidly and adjust to the new circumstances.

The governing body of any school is ultimately responsible for approving the budget, and they would have had to agree that it was OK to approve a deficit budget in the knowledge that it would have to be brought back into line in future years by under-spending (rather hard on future pupils, I think, but that's life).

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12 hours ago, Locke said:

This is sinking to a new low. What happens to ships which are drowning in debt? 

They can expect it to go swimmingly forever. Servicing those overdrafts can't be smooth sailing! 

It's gonna be rough seas for the economy with the storm clouds looming.

Perhaps this is the high tide mark for this country

People are ignoring your post as if nothing happened, but I wanted to thank you for it! It's a triumph :D

 

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8 hours ago, Ah-so said:

I can speak with a bit of experience on school funding.

Schools are meant to keep within their annual budget, but I do not think that if they run into deficit that it is actual borrowing, say from a banking, but rather from the reserves of the local authority, so it is not really additional public borrowing in the normal sense of the word.

One thing that may have led to this was a re-jig of school funding a couple of years ago. While there was no change in the overall amount of funding going into schools, the funding formula changed. Some schools got more, some got less. The new formula is fairer in that schools get typically a similar amount of funding per pupil wherever they are. Before there was more variability.

However, changes to budget are quite hard to react to - salaried staff cannot be easily dismissed so it can be tricky to bring a budget down if it falls rapidly and adjust to the new circumstances.

The governing body of any school is ultimately responsible for approving the budget, and they would have had to agree that it was OK to approve a deficit budget in the knowledge that it would have to be brought back into line in future years by under-spending (rather hard on future pupils, I think, but that's life).

That explanation  would make the average debt zero, with half getting a bit more and half a bit less , and total  funding staying the same. It doesn't explain how they owe half a million each. 

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10 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

That explanation  would make the average debt zero, with half getting a bit more and half a bit less , and total  funding staying the same. It doesn't explain how they owe half a million each. 

You don't count the budget surplus of one school when looking at the deficit of another.

Also, it's easy to increase spending to match increased funding, but much more difficult to cut spending to match decreased funding. I can see how shifting the funding around would increase the total level of debt, which when averaged out comes to that. 

It's probably a lot worse at some schools than others.

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11 hours ago, mrtickle said:

People are ignoring your post as if nothing happened, but I wanted to thank you for it! It's a triumph :D

 

*bow*

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On 16/01/2019 at 00:28, lie to bet said:

'And the average local authority secondary school debt is £483,000'

From BBC news site.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46826990

 

Does anyone know if this debt is held by individual schools, and if so does it appear on the national debt figure 

I once spoke to a Naval officer who told me every boat had its own overdraft facility.

If it does not appear in the national  debt figure, you have to wonder how many other goverment bodies are disguising the debt.

No need to worry; the debt underwriters are good for it........ ask them, they agreed to it.

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5 hours ago, Locke said:

You don't count the budget surplus of one school when looking at the deficit of another.

Also, it's easy to increase spending to match increased funding, but much more difficult to cut spending to match decreased funding. I can see how shifting the funding around would increase the total level of debt, which when averaged out comes to that. 

It's probably a lot worse at some schools than others.

What I couldn't quite glean from the article is whether this is the average of all schools or rather the average of schools that are in debt. I rather think it is the latter, which is the basis of my comment. 

Also, schools that are given additional funding are quite good at findi5ways to spend it. It is cutting expenditure that is more challenging. 

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OK.  So they're not all in debt but the ones that are owe half a million each.

That means some of them owe a million, the labour controlled ones presumably.  It's Corbyn economics at the local level.

So what percentage are in debt? 

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Most of the schools i have heard about being in terrible debt, having to close some of the schools in their chains and lay off staff are academies, which were set up by Blair as private businesses. The whole structure of being a (pseudo) private business, with less oversight than an authority school allows this. Also the mentality of those running it who regard themselves as CEOs rather than headteachers leads to financial recklessness or even dishonesty. 

I cant remember which academy chain it was, but it was discussed on here i think, asked primary schools under it to transfer their surplus  into its accounts before going bust. 

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Time to close them all. It's just glorified childcare. Schools were started to educate the children of the workhouse. No need in a highly literate society with internet. I've heard of several kids who taught themselves to read once they were given a tablet/iPad. Some as young as 2 and a half.

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Modern schools were started to indoctrinate kids into becoming compliant drones for factory work and big armies.

As you say, it's well past time to close them all down. But that will cause a colossal REEE! from the single mothers who rely on them for childcare.

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The school my eldest attends is part church and part state funded. Parents raise a lot of it too.

It's in surplus but still maintains an excellent standard.

All just good management and engagement.

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I found some inflation-adjusted spend per pupil numbers a little while ago. It had fallen a bit from a peak of about ten years ago but was still much higher than in the even not that distant past (90s, early 2000s). Makes me wonder where the money's going, although back then they could've still been subsidising themselves by selling off playing fields.

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By the time john major left office UK primary and education spend had fallen behind. I was educated in an 80s comp and remember old equipment and crumbling buildings. The money did need to increase. Schools also employ more support staff than in the past too for a variety of reasons. 

In the 2000s teacher pay also increased, i never taught in the 80s, but know it was poor then(although much less was demanded) Under new labour the pay became quite good, however following a decade of pay freezes,  in my opinion,  i would class it as no more than satisfactory now, for what is required. 

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when some head teachers are paid more than the prime minister

when even the deputy heads earn more than mps

when they stopped janitors doing jobs and dont have inhouse handyman to do things like change lightbulbs and touch up paintwork and instead hire in large outside contractors for everything at large outside contractor rates.

when they farm out the cooking and cleaning to private companies. 

when they have pay and conditions for staff in the top 10% pay bracket and the best pensions in the country (yet still are first to complain)

when they close perfectly good older school and pfi new schools costing millions

 

yup some schools run into debt. 

Edited by jimmy2x3

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12 hours ago, Riedquat said:

I found some inflation-adjusted spend per pupil numbers a little while ago. It had fallen a bit from a peak of about ten years ago but was still much higher than in the even not that distant past (90s, early 2000s). Makes me wonder where the money's going, although back then they could've still been subsidising themselves by selling off playing fields.

It's going to private companies to pay for plush buildings like this:

https://lfata.org.uk/

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Great thread for hpc nonsense bingo, this. 

We've got total misunderstanding of how things work ("that means the total net debt must be zero"), conspiracy theory that makes no sense ("they're using schools (and navy ships apparently) to hide debt"), obligatory non sequitur plug for gold/silver/Bitcoin and the equally obligatory "you can teach yourself astrophysics with a couple of ted talks on YouTube" disdain for education. 

What's actually happening is that the systematic underfunding of LEA schools is yet another example of the death by a thousand cuts this government is inflicting on our public services. The budget deficits are fundamentally underwritten by the controlling authority so it's yet another stealth budget cut for your local authority. 

There is only so much "fat" that can be trimmed. Over the next few years we will see more and more local authorities going to the wall who will in turn no longer be able to provide services to or otherwise prop up their schools. Then we're all at the mercy of the free market which was the whole point since day one. 

Those of you cheering for this are about to discover with hindsight the true meaning of economies of scale and how it applies to everything in our economy from collecting the bins to caring for our elderly. The ultimate irony of course being that these private sector parasites will be helping themselves to that little nest egg you've got stashed away for when house prices finally hit the magic number you've got in your heads. 

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53 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

s only so much "fat" that can be trimmed. Over the next few years we will see more and more local authorities going to the wall who will in turn no longer be able to provide services to or otherwise prop up their schools. Then we're all at the mercy of the free market which was the whole point since day one. 

Those of you cheering for this are about to discover with hindsight the true meaning of economies of scale and how it applies to everything in our economy from collecting the bins to caring for our elderly. The ultimate irony of course being that these private sector parasites will be helping themselves to that little nest egg you've got stashed away for when house prices finally hit the magic number you've got in your heads. 

The usual official Labour party flannel, Evil Tories etc.

As is usual in the public sector it's poor management and internal politics that is the core problem. LAs are going broke because of eye-watering pensions and the cost of caring for ageing boomers who didn't provision enough for their old age - this country has an ageing crisis.

 

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Before we could have any discussion about services and the money required all immigration will have to cease. And a serious case would need to be made for looking at ways to persuade the millions who came here since Blair to go back to wherever they came from.

Then, after a few years of virtually zero immigration, we can assess what is required and how to move forward.

Edited by Errol

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local athorities are suffering from labours largess. corbynestic economics in a recession 

 

solution. tell em they gotta work till 65/67 like everyone else, force out the lazy like anyone else, stop all those on full pay stress leave, cut wages into line with the rest of the country, get rid of high cost double admin, get rid of high cost private companies. 

 

of course what the councils want instead is to raise allready over burdened council tax which effects the people they claim to want to help more than others, and a free hand to charge everyone for everything they allready pay for ie car parking, toilets and anything else they can think of. 

 

the councils want to no matter what keep their uneconomical system and expect the public to pay for it and use the threat of closing librarys while still giving everyone up to the big wigs lots and lots of money.

Edited by jimmy2x3

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4 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Great thread for hpc nonsense bingo, this. 

We've got total misunderstanding of how things work ("that means the total net debt must be zero"), conspiracy theory that makes no sense ("they're using schools (and navy ships apparently) to hide debt"), obligatory non sequitur plug for gold/silver/Bitcoin and the equally obligatory "you can teach yourself astrophysics with a couple of ted talks on YouTube" disdain for education. 

+1

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  • 294 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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