Houdini Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Shelter have a housing report out today which I won't have time to read in detail for a while. However there is this chart which probably tells us everything we need to know. We have the 4th largest social housing sector but we are in the bottom 5 for ownership and rental costs are too high. has a run through of all the important bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freki Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 https://england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/1642613/Shelter_UK_-_A_vision_for_social_housing_full_interactive_report.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 A vision of building millions more houses? Enough for several cities? Appalling, but will no doubt get cheered on by the usual suspects who couldn't care less about Britain becoming an ever more unpleasant place to live in. Probably play the "people need somewhere to live!" card to continue ignoring the cause whilst promoting treating the symptoms with a medicine with ghastly side effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 No homes will be built unless they are paid for.....who will pay for them? Plan ahead! can't even plan ahead two years let alone twenty years......too busy today paying for yesterday's mistakes and non action.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, winkie said: No homes will be built unless they are paid for.....who will pay for them? Plan ahead! can't even plan ahead two years let alone twenty years......too busy today paying for yesterday's mistakes and non action.? The country is crying out for a nationwide program of general needs social housing. As yet, only the Labour party is committed to delivering one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The country is crying out for a nationwide program of general needs social housing. As yet, only the Labour party is committed to delivering one. How can anyone believe that.......they have had plenty of chances to act, they did nothing, all talk.... all they did was make the housing problem worse and the national debt greater.......building with pfi , making the country poorer.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The country is crying out for a nationwide program of general needs social housing. As yet, only the Labour party is committed to delivering one. Even putting aside my loathing of building lots that's still treating the symptoms. Housing isn't something that should need subsidising (other than special needs). So Labour claim to be committed to continuing to keep people dependent on the state, and the Conservatives continue to not give a sh1t. Neither have the answer, or seem interested in trying to find a decent one. Edited January 8, 2019 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Riedquat said: Even putting aside my loathing of building lots that's still treating the symptoms. Housing isn't something that should need subsidising (other than special needs). So Labour claim to be committed to continuing to keep people dependent on the state, and the Conservatives continue to not give a sh1t. Neither have the answer, or seem interested in trying to find a decent one. While Corbyn's Labour is looking to address the manifold failures of the housing market, the Tory boys seem more interested in perpetuating them. Chalk and cheese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Houdini said: Shelter have a housing report out today which I won't have time to read in detail for a while. However there is this chart which probably tells us everything we need to know. What it tells me is that there is a strong inverse correlation between wealth of the country and home ownership, with home ownership nearly 100% in the poor countries like Romania and Hungary, but down at 40-60% in rich countries like Sweden, Germany and the UK. Rather than telling me everything I need to know that's almost baffling - so the richer your country, the less able you are to afford a house?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 hour ago, zugzwang said: While Corbyn's Labour is looking to address the manifold failures of the housing market, the Tory boys seem more interested in perpetuating them. Chalk and cheese. Labour does not appear to have the slightest bit of interest in addressing the fundamental underlying problem of constantly increasing the demand for housing, more the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houdini Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, scottbeard said: What it tells me is that there is a strong inverse correlation between wealth of the country and home ownership, with home ownership nearly 100% in the poor countries like Romania and Hungary, but down at 40-60% in rich countries like Sweden, Germany and the UK. Rather than telling me everything I need to know that's almost baffling - so the richer your country, the less able you are to afford a house?! I think it's more that there is a banking sector willing to lend far more money in a rich country than they are in a poorer county. That then means 1) prices many people out of buying a property as banks are willing to lend money to those who already have money (as we see with BTL most people maximised the amount they borrowed and pushed prices up rather than trying to minimise costs) 2) High rents (required to pay for the mortgages taken out on the overpriced properties BTLers bought) mean that people can't save up to be in a position to purchase those properties. I actually think it tells us that BTL is a big problem that really shouldn't have been allowed to be created and needs to be fixed. Whether fixing it is possible without prices crashing only time will tell (I suspect they will crash but prices have been higher than fundamentals for 15+ years now so what do I know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorrowToLeech Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 hours ago, winkie said: No homes will be built unless they are paid for.....who will pay for them? Plan ahead! can't even plan ahead two years let alone twenty years......too busy today paying for yesterday's mistakes and non action.? We already subsidise housing, through housing benefit. This has proved to be horribly inefficient, with most of the cash going into the pockets of private landlords and the cost of housing spiralling out of control. And this will get worse, as private sector tenants inevitably retire and can no longer afford to rent. Building council housing is a one off investment that will pay off in the long run by reducing the ongoing housing benefit bill. You’re in profit before you’ve even considered the massive boost to the economy once people no-longer have to support the huge burden of feckless landlords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorrowToLeech Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 18 minutes ago, scottbeard said: What it tells me is that there is a strong inverse correlation between wealth of the country and home ownership, with home ownership nearly 100% in the poor countries like Romania and Hungary, but down at 40-60% in rich countries like Sweden, Germany and the UK. Rather than telling me everything I need to know that's almost baffling - so the richer your country, the less able you are to afford a house?! The way we measure wealth doesn’t reflect actual wealth in any meaningful sense and, even if we did measure it, mean or aggregate real wealth is irrelevant if modal or median wealth is decreasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) Government needs to build three million social homes to solve housing crisis, finds landmark review https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/social-housing-how-many-new-houses-homes-crisis-shelter-report-homelessness-a8715541.html England needs 3m new social homes by 2040, says cross-party report https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/08/england-needs-3m-new-social-homes-by-2040-says-cross-party-report Edited January 8, 2019 by Saving For a Space Ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, BorrowToLeech said: Building council housing is a one off investment that will pay off in the long run by reducing the ongoing housing benefit bill. It's not a one-off investment, as demonstrated by the fact that plenty have been built in the past although that's counter-argued with "it would've been if they hadn't been sold off." Quote You’re in profit before you’ve even considered the massive boost to the economy once people no-longer have to support the huge burden of feckless landlords. So you've built millions of houses and the landlords have to quit. Well, the landlords suffering isn't a problem, but what happens to all those houses they were renting out? Did we actually need to build all that many - a lack of houses (probably somewhat true due to insane population growth but certainly not the whole picture), or was the problem who had the ownership? 16 minutes ago, Saving For a Space Ship said: Government needs to build three million social homes to solve housing crisis, finds landmark review https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/social-housing-how-many-new-houses-homes-crisis-shelter-report-homelessness-a8715541.html England needs 3m new social homes by 2040, says cross-party report https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/08/england-needs-3m-new-social-homes-by-2040-says-cross-party-report 3 million, and that's just social houses, on top of all others. What a grim vision of the future that is! This has to stop. The only plans for the future anyone seems to have are involve building a continually worse country to live in, with only "well it's the lesser evil if you rule out even thinking about tackling the fundamentals" to justify them. Edited January 8, 2019 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 22 minutes ago, BorrowToLeech said: The way we measure wealth doesn’t reflect actual wealth in any meaningful sense and, even if we did measure it, mean or aggregate real wealth is irrelevant if modal or median wealth is decreasing. Surely by any meaningful measure of wealth Germany is better off than Romania though? And yet home ownership is 50% in Germany and 100% in Romania? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 43 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Labour does not appear to have the slightest bit of interest in addressing the fundamental underlying problem of constantly increasing the demand for housing, more the opposite. Very true, not paying people to come to the UK (i.e. not giving new immigrants benefits) would save us money and reduce the demand for housing - a win win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kirk Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Why is it Romania is a nation of homeowners whilst Britian is a nation of ever growing rent seekers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, scottbeard said: What it tells me is that there is a strong inverse correlation between wealth of the country and home ownership, with home ownership nearly 100% in the poor countries like Romania and Hungary, but down at 40-60% in rich countries like Sweden, Germany and the UK. Rather than telling me everything I need to know that's almost baffling - so the richer your country, the less able you are to afford a house?! Under communism families were given homes for free. There was no rent to pay. That's why property ownership is so high in the ex-communist countries. Under capitalism we are free to borrow a huge sum of money from whichever banker we want and spend a lifetime paying it back in order to keep a roof over our heads. Yum yum, delicious freedom. Edited January 8, 2019 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dorkins said: Under communism families were given homes for free. There was no rent to pay. That's why property ownership is so high in the ex-communist countries. Under capitalism we are free to borrow a huge sum of money from whichever banker we want and spend a lifetime paying it back in order to keep a roof over our heads. Yum yum, delicious freedom. What's a typical retirement age in Romania? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Si1 said: What's a typical retirement age in Romania? No idea, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, Si1 said: What's a typical retirement age in Romania? Retirement Age Men in Romania was last registered at 65.00 in 2017 and Retirement Age Women went up to 60.67 from 60.30 in 2016. Retirement Age Men in Romania all-time average stands at 64.10 and it's projection for 2018 is 65. Retirement Age Women averaged 59.14 and is projected to be 61 in 2018. https://www.ipe.com/romania-approves-pension-reform-with-changes-to-indexation-retirement-age/38467.article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kirk Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, scottbeard said: Surely by any meaningful measure of wealth Germany is better off than Romania though? And yet home ownership is 50% in Germany and 100% in Romania? Is renting cheaper than buying in countries like Germany? There was a time when return on savings in the UK would cover a good chunk of rent so it wouldn't make sense to put your savings into property let alone borrow to speculate. Edited January 8, 2019 by Captain Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 31 minutes ago, Captain Kirk said: Is renting cheaper than buying in countries like Germany? There was a time when return on savings in the UK would cover a good chunk of rent so it wouldn't make sense to put your savings into property let alone borrow to speculate. When was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kirk Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 24 minutes ago, iamnumerate said: When was that? Before rates were floored so before the GFC. You could easily get 6% interest on savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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