Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Freki

The understandings of economics in the UK

Recommended Posts

So I was reading this guardian article :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/04/cheap-rail-fares-benefit-rich-muddled-thinking-fairness-error

First paragraph, this: 

Quote

Take this tweet from YouGov, following the recently announced rise in fares. “There will be calls for train fares to be frozen – the main beneficiaries will be those in wealthier households. 42% of those who made more than 50 train journeys last year are in households earning £40k+. Just 10% are in households on less than £20k”.

Am I the only one that gets increasingly frustrated about people being confused between wealth (stock of money) and income (flow of money)?

Those narratives need to change so people understand the predicament this country is in with that stupid housing bubble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Freki said:

Am I the only one that gets increasingly frustrated about people being confused between wealth (stock of money) and income (flow of money)?

It's being deliberately ignored, especially by Labour, because Boomers vote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, disenfranchised said:

It's being deliberately ignored, especially by Labour, because Boomers vote.

During the New Labour years a female Labour minister said that large increases in Council Tax would be  justified because houses had increased so much in price.

However desirable higher property tax may be this was nonetheless an example of confusing income and assets. And what if you were renting? You'd have paid the increase without even being the owner of said asset.

I'm sure you are correct that this is deliberate but also I suspect that some MPs don't understand even basic financials.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheap rail fares primarily benefit people who own houses further out of cities, at the expense of people who live closer.

Any savings will go into increased house prices as moving out and commuting back is made more viable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Bluestone59 said:

However desirable higher property tax may be this was nonetheless an example of confusing income and assets. And what if you were renting? You'd have paid the increase without even being the owner of said asset.

I'm sure you are correct that this is deliberate but also I suspect that some MPs don't understand even basic financials.

Landlords pay council tax, not tenants. This is basic financials.

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence

Edited by BorrowToLeech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is all about finding the figures you want and making them fit into your side of the story, often the same story as the people that are paying you......statistics can tell you anything you want them to tell you, or tell anyone else......;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BorrowToLeech said:

Landlords pay council tax, not tenants. This is basic financials. 

Really I thought the tennant did unless the house is an HMO.

You have no liability for the cTAx unless you fail to report a new tenancy or termination of tenancy.

Forgive me if this is wrong bee awhile since I rented.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a lot like government ministers saying they're paying off the deficit, they're no better.

Deficit is the rate of change of debt.

Income is the rate of change of wealth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tes Tickle said:

It's a lot like government ministers saying they're paying off the deficit, they're no better.

Deficit is the rate of change of debt.

Income is the rate of change of wealth.

No better? They're worse! These witless hoons are in charge of the national accounts!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

Really I thought the tennant did unless the house is an HMO.

You have no liability for the cTAx unless you fail to report a new tenancy or termination of tenancy.

Forgive me if this is wrong bee awhile since I rented.

Legally, the person liable for paying is the tenant (in most cases, as far as I know). 

Economically, the person who feels the loss is the landlord. 

With all taxes, prices adjust to reflect the tax. In this case, rents are lower because of council tax. 

For petrol, it’s the other way around. Prices are higher because of the tax. In this case, the consumer pays (most of) the economic cost, even though HMRC gets its cheque from the petrol station. 

In most cases the buyer and seller both pay some fraction of the tax, but the fraction varies and is difficult to figure out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BorrowToLeech said:

Legally, the person liable for paying is the tenant (in most cases, as far as I know). 

Economically, the person who feels the loss is the landlord. 

With all taxes, prices adjust to reflect the tax. In this case, rents are lower because of council tax. 

For petrol, it’s the other way around. Prices are higher because of the tax. In this case, the consumer pays (most of) the economic cost, even though HMRC gets its cheque from the petrol station. 

In most cases the buyer and seller both pay some fraction of the tax, but the fraction varies and is difficult to figure out. 

Only true for private landlords or where council/housing assocation tenants pay the same as in the private sector.  If council /housing assocationtenants pay less than the private sector the landlord is not losing money as they could have charged more but didn't.

 

Saying that did the move from rents to poll tax to council tax affect rents at all.  If the theory is true (that council tax etc effects the landlord) shouldn't there have been some change in rents as a result of these changes.

When council taxes go up has there ever been any cases of rents going down as a result?

 

(I don't disagree with the theory just wonder if it has been proved).

Edited by iamnumerate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, janch said:

When I rented last year I paid the CT not my LL

You (and others) are not understanding what BorrowToLeech is saying.

If council tax ceased to exist, landlords would be able to raise their rents by the exact amount of the tax and tenants would pay the higher rents (because they can). The landlord would have extra money in their pocket but for the tenant the cost would be the same each month.

Current situation:
Rent (900) + council tax (100)
Tenant pays 1000.
Landlord takes 900  - for example, ignoring other expenses
Government takes 100

No council tax:
Rent (1000)
Tenant pays 1000
Landlord takes 1000
Government takes 0

Therefore, regardless of the tenant being the one to physically pay council tax, the landlord bears the costs - ie. the landlords pay it.

Edited by dugsbody

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Freezer? Best place for it said:

You know much too much.  Joe Public is as thick as pig shyte, and if pushed will look at the pictures.

Stats back this up. The average reading age in UK is that of a 9 year old. Probably partly why we have to import talent from other countries. 

Quote

Five million adults lack basic reading, writing and numeracy skills required in everyday life and to carry out a job, research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation found.
According to government figures, 28 per cent of adults have a standard of literacy of level 1 or below, the equivalent of GCSE grades D-G. For numeracy, 29 per cent of adults scored the level 1 or below.


Around one in 20 adults have the literacy or numeracy levels of a five-year-old, meaning they would struggle just to write a short message or to select a floor number in a lift.
England is the only country in the OECD where the average literacy score for the youngest age group (16-18 years old) is lower than that of the oldest age group (55 to 65 years old), the  Foundation said.
23 per cent of 16 to 18 year-olds are at literacy level one or below, compared to 19 per cent of 55 to 65 year-olds. For numeracy, 29 per cent of 16 to 18 year-olds are at level 1 or below, compared to 26 per cent of the older age group.

In other countries, young people significantly outperform their older counterparts, but the trend is the opposite in England. For the oldest age group in the study, England is third in the international rankings for literacy, while for the youngest age group (16-18) it is 18th.
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/28/three-rs-on-the-decline-as-a-quarter-of-adults-have-a-reading-ag/

 

 

Edited by PeanutButter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

Stats back this up. The average reading age in UK is that of a 9 year old. Probably partly why we have to import talent from other countries. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/28/three-rs-on-the-decline-as-a-quarter-of-adults-have-a-reading-ag/

 

 

This is something I don't get.

Sitting on the schoolkids bus I overheard teenage girls discussing schoolwork. I was astonished at how much they knew about the study of statistics. The relatively few younger people I come into contact with strike me as well educated and intelligent.

What I suspect is that language and literature may be being neglected in favour of maths and computing and that there is less reading than hitherto.

Really I don't know, just wonder if anyone does. These organisations that report stuff wouldn't exist if there was no bad news.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Bluestone59 said:

This is something I don't get.

Sitting on the schoolkids bus I overheard teenage girls discussing schoolwork. I was astonished at how much they knew about the study of statistics. The relatively few younger people I come into contact with strike me as well educated and intelligent.

What I suspect is that language and literature may be being neglected in favour of maths and computing and that there is less reading than hitherto.

Really I don't know, just wonder if anyone does. These organisations that report stuff wouldn't exist if there was no bad news.

Lies, damned and statistics?!

 

My experience is similar to yours, but I suspect that's because we live near good schools. It seems likely that a lot of people who struggle with basic literacy and numeracy live in poor areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Kosmin said:

It seems likely that a lot of people who struggle with basic literacy and numeracy live in poor areas.

And in these “ghetto”areas, they eat high fat cheap crap and over use the Health Service (I bet they are ugly too, and smoke).  But the positive thing is that they die young.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sitting on the bus I recently overheard public school teens discussing the fact that each of their classes costs their parents £23 and if the teacher just gives them free time or study time 'It's wasting our money.' 

Sitting on the bus in the other direction I can't overhear anything because of competing mobile phones playing trap music. 

I've personally known a vice principal of a large well-regarded high school who believed that spelling didn't matter as long as people understood the gist of a student's ideas. Txt speaks ok innit n we r all gonna be starz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bluestone59 said:

During the New Labour years a female Labour minister said that large increases in Council Tax would be  justified because houses had increased so much in price.

Oh dear back to school for her 😰

You should then adjust all the band's to allow HPI and suddenly find every house is in the same band🙄

At least she didn't worry about 50% of people being under average.

Edited by nightowl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 355 The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.