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The Radical Left-Wing Theory That the Government Has Unlimited Money


Harry Sacks
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15 minutes ago, dom said:

Yep. It's like economists take what it is that gives currency value for granted - skilled labour, resources and the products when the two are combined. Reading the MMT you'd think the end game was no one lifting a finger, in reality it would be Zimbabwe.

After reading the Surplus Energy Economics blog I had this thought:

I like to think of money as the lubricant that allows the energy-driven engine of the economy to run more efficiently, but the lubricant only increases the engine’s efficiency up to a point. The engine has begun to burn fuel less efficiently (with a lower Energy Return On Energy Invested) and central bankers, seeing the engine’s falling performance but not understanding how it works, have added more lubricant in the hope that this will increase its performance. Instead the engine has developed problems of over-lubrication (bubbles) and is being damaged by this (malinvestment).

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5 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Just interested to know where this "benefit claimant can outdo guy who earns £50k" meme comes from, particularly in the age of the benefit cap. 

I earn a bit more than £50k, wife earn a around £15k these days (part time owing to kids). We get diddly squat of anything basically. 

Still wouldn't swap our large detached house, garden, parking etc we own plus ability to save and, crucially, prospects for the future for a paid for flat in the social housing over the road from us but willing to be persuaded why I should jack it all in and go on the dole because I'm basically wasting effort. 

I know quite a few who do this. The normal play is to claim all the benefits and then at least one of the parents work cash in hand. Normally the guy doing a trade. Benefits, plus £150 day cash in hand and they are on 35 - 40k and 20k benefits. 

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6 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Just interested to know where this "benefit claimant can outdo guy who earns £50k" meme comes from, particularly in the age of the benefit cap. 

I earn a bit more than £50k, wife earn a around £15k these days (part time owing to kids). We get diddly squat of anything basically. 

Still wouldn't swap our large detached house, garden, parking etc we own plus ability to save and, crucially, prospects for the future for a paid for flat in the social housing over the road from us but willing to be persuaded why I should jack it all in and go on the dole because I'm basically wasting effort. 

I know quite a few who do this. The normal play is to claim all the benefits and then at least one of the parents work cash in hand. Normally the guy doing a trade. Benefits, plus £150 day cash in hand and they are on 35 - 40k and 20k benefits. 

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43 minutes ago, Will! said:

After reading the Surplus Energy Economics blog I had this thought:

I like to think of money as the lubricant that allows the energy-driven engine of the economy to run more efficiently, but the lubricant only increases the engine’s efficiency up to a point. The engine has begun to burn fuel less efficiently (with a lower Energy Return On Energy Invested) and central bankers, seeing the engine’s falling performance but not understanding how it works, have added more lubricant in the hope that this will increase its performance. Instead the engine has developed problems of over-lubrication (bubbles) and is being damaged by this (malinvestment).

And here's how it works in practice -
"In France, and with all sums expressed in euros at constant 2017 values, GDP grew by 23% between 2000 and 2017. But this growth, whilst adding €433bn to GDP, was accompanied by a €3.07tn increase in aggregate debt. This means that each €1 of reported growth in the French economy has come at a cost of more than €7 in net new debt. Put another way, whilst French GDP is growing at between 1.5% and 2.0%, annual borrowing is running at about 9.5% of GDP. "

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2018/12/07/140-are-yellow-jackets-the-new-fashion/?fbclid=IwAR0wgAYjIK3y44qOtO7ZcVVQHHVxmeMC9uguR-IfQYd8zn7U7z8dFmOXmIk

 

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4 minutes ago, Killian said:

I know quite a few who do this. The normal play is to claim all the benefits and then at least one of the parents work cash in hand. Normally the guy doing a trade. Benefits, plus £150 day cash in hand and they are on 35 - 40k and 20k benefits. 

or while running LTD companies and taking full advantage of tax deductions....

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7 minutes ago, dom said:

And here's how it works in practice -
"In France, and with all sums expressed in euros at constant 2017 values, GDP grew by 23% between 2000 and 2017. But this growth, whilst adding €433bn to GDP, was accompanied by a €3.07tn increase in aggregate debt. This means that each €1 of reported growth in the French economy has come at a cost of more than €7 in net new debt. Put another way, whilst French GDP is growing at between 1.5% and 2.0%, annual borrowing is running at about 9.5% of GDP. "

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2018/12/07/140-are-yellow-jackets-the-new-fashion/?fbclid=IwAR0wgAYjIK3y44qOtO7ZcVVQHHVxmeMC9uguR-IfQYd8zn7U7z8dFmOXmIk

 

GDP etc are all a load of rubbish, I strongly suspect when all factors are considered growth has been negative in the West for well over a decade.

Would the true comparison be aggregate debt less aggregate assets and seeing how this has changed relative to GDP?

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Scanned the article. Vice do love to leave out entire words, don't they. 

Quote

As Sam Levey, a graduate student in economics who tweets under the name Deficit Owls told me, “Macy’s can’t run out of Macy’s gift certificates.”

Ah yes. But the store can go under. 

Maybe I'm just bored of hearing the same people tell us all 'the answer'. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Killian said:

That blog makes a lot of sense but energy is not the main reason, it is a global population growth and stress on all resources

"First, prosperity is already in marked decline in almost all Western economies, typically having peaked between 2000 and 2007. The only significant exception to this pattern is Germany, largely because of the benefits conferred on the Germany economy by the euro system. "

Not really. it's financial system is decentralised with over 1500 small and NFP banks.rather than an oligopoly. Regulation favors production and not speculation and they make really high quality gear that everyone wants.

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20 minutes ago, dom said:

"First, prosperity is already in marked decline in almost all Western economies, typically having peaked between 2000 and 2007. The only significant exception to this pattern is Germany, largely because of the benefits conferred on the Germany economy by the euro system. "

Not really. it's financial system is decentralised with over 1500 small and NFP banks.rather than an oligopoly. Regulation favors production and not speculation and they make really high quality gear that everyone wants.

Growth in the West has to be taken in totality. Well over half of German exports are to the EU, they have just taken prosperity from other EU nations.

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11 hours ago, Killian said:

That blog makes a lot of sense but energy is not the main reason, it is a global population growth and stress on all resources

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/143-fire-and-ice-part-one/#comment-11066

Quote

The conventional position is that increasing population numbers does not reduce prosperity, because the labour of additional numbers adds to economic output.

But this assumes that human labour drives economic activity. My interpretation, though, is that prosperity in the aggregate is a function of energy (strictly, surplus energy, after ECoE). Human labour accounts for less than 1% of ‘work done’ (energy applied) in the modern economy. 

So an increase in population numbers dilutes prosperity. This is not offset by the labour effect, because human labour is a very small component of the energy total. 

The exception to this is where migration brings more ingenuity to the process of how energy is used. So there’s a case for attracting migrants with useful skills, but not for attracting those without such skills. 

This is a national dimension of a global issue – the continuing growth in population numbers sharing an ultimately-finite resource set.

 

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21 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Just interested to know where this "benefit claimant can outdo guy who earns £50k" meme comes from, particularly in the age of the benefit cap. 

I earn a bit more than £50k, wife earn a around £15k these days (part time owing to kids). We get diddly squat of anything basically. 

Still wouldn't swap our large detached house, garden, parking etc we own plus ability to save and, crucially, prospects for the future for a paid for flat in the social housing over the road from us but willing to be persuaded why I should jack it all in and go on the dole because I'm basically wasting effort. 

Earning £50,000 as someone older and who is established is far different than someone young earning that kind of money today, not always though. I have seen cases where at least one is still working, the housing benefit alone for some women who have multiple kids from different Fathers  makes work for many pointless, cash in hand jobs. Yes I agree it is a little tougher these days, but not much. I have known endless people on £30,000 plus for example who were very time poor with working(not lazy at all) who felt like they have gone to heaven when they packed up work through bad back, stress, neck gone etc and then decided to use the time to retrain, though there was nothing ever wrong with the,

The welfare system is still over generous, yes we hear these awful stories in the media about people not getting a penny for weeks as they wait for the new system to move over, these are people who have decided ages ago they are 100% going to depend on the welfare system for the rest of their lives, I know I am getting a little more heartless as I get older, but f*** them, I want them frightened to death to at least partially getting work, even if it is sweeping the streets to earn their welfare 5 hours per day.

 

P.S just watched my thick very attractive uneducated lazy daughter of a cousin get a council house at 20 after now getting pregnant twice with no dad on the scene. just try that as someone at 30 plus who has worked their b*****x off since leaving school, they would be laughed out of the building.

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21 hours ago, spyguy said:

Its not a meme, its real

https://moneyweek.com/merryns-blog/the-truth-about-tax-credits/#.VkTRkD74WVY.twitter

You are working 60h+ for your 65k.

You can get same income with 2 adhd kids and 16h on tesco tills.

See tax credit sad face...

I have seen it too often, kids are currency these days, and there is plenty of loony left nutcases who are willing to stand up for the idle, more so in todays Labour party

The real victims in the UK, and have been for the past 15 years are the workers on £20,000-£35,000 who are stupid enough to use family planning and want to be self sufficient.

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