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18 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Thats gambling not investing.

PS you would have done better with, safe as houses, Bitcoin

Fair enough.

I totally bought into the 'mission' of Tesla as much as anything.  Seemed like a good ethical investment, using engineering to create  vehicles which tackle climate change and urban pollution and encouraging other car makers to do the same. 

Bitcoin struck me as a bit of a fraud / ponzi / confidence trick, to be honest, or I could never get my head around it.

I didn't mean for this to become about Tesla / me.  More about the long term advantages of having shares in an ISA for avoiding capital gains tax / income tax on dividends.  Even with growth of 10% per annum the cumulative effect of capital growth and re-invested dividends becomes significant.  Over a decade or more of investing, you start to avoid very large sums of tax.  It makes BTL investing seem quite tax inefficient and a huge amount of hassle in comparison, plus illiquid and indivisible and with high buying / selling fees.  I prefer ISAs to pensions as you get paying the tax over with at the beginning (paying out of taxed income) and you know you will not have to pay tax on them when you cash them in.

Buying a principal residence (at the right price) makes a lot of sense from avoiding CGT, but I don't see the appeal of BTL at all, esp with medium term risk of interest rates rising significantly.  

What is very un-remarked upon is the massive difference between UK and US mortgage interest rates.  If you look at UK mortgage rates at the moment they are not much above 1.5%, whereas the US 'best buys' are about 4.5%.  If UK rates get back to anywhere near 4.5%, then a lot of people will be sunk and UK house prices will collapse.

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26 minutes ago, winkie said:

BTL or ISAs and stocks and shares?.....what about growth made from what you don't buy instead of focusing on what should be buying.?

 

indeed i keep hearing you need to be making money all the time to be successful.  however society would view you as a loser if you do not generate money by investments or employment.  what if you have no desires to spend any no need to make it. 

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6 minutes ago, Ballyk said:

Fair enough.

I totally bought into the 'mission' of Tesla as much as anything.  Seemed like a good ethical investment, using engineering to create  vehicles which tackle climate change and urban pollution and encouraging other car makers to do the same. 

Bitcoin struck me as a bit of a fraud / ponzi / confidence trick, to be honest, or I could never get my head around it.

I didn't mean for this to become about Tesla / me.  More about the long term advantages of having shares in an ISA for avoiding capital gains tax / income tax on dividends.  Even with growth of 10% per annum the cumulative effect of capital growth and re-invested dividends becomes significant.  Over a decade or more of investing, you start to avoid very large sums of tax.  It makes BTL investing seem quite tax inefficient and a huge amount of hassle in comparison, plus illiquid and indivisible and with high buying / selling fees.  I prefer ISAs to pensions as you get paying the tax over with at the beginning (paying out of taxed income) and you know you will not have to pay tax on them when you cash them in.

Buying a principal residence (at the right price) makes a lot of sense from avoiding CGT, but I don't see the appeal of BTL at all, esp with medium term risk of interest rates rising significantly.  

What is very un-remarked upon is the massive difference between UK and US mortgage interest rates.  If you look at UK mortgage rates at the moment they are not much above 1.5%, whereas the US 'best buys' are about 4.5%.  If UK rates get back to anywhere near 4.5%, then a lot of people will be sunk and UK house prices will collapse.

I agree with you about Tesla and the wisdom of investing long term in ISAs.

I hope Bitcoin fails, mainly to make me feel better about looking at it when it was around 10p a coin and thinking it would never take off, but also because burning electricity to make money is fundamentally stupid especially when it is done as inefficiently as Bitcoin.

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3 hours ago, Ballyk said:

I'm no expert at all on trading, shorting and all that clever stuff.  I just try to buy them when they are a bit low looking and (very occasionally) sell when everyone is getting a bit euphoric, then buy back a bit later.

I think they could possibly dip in the next couple of weeks, but I have a feeling they will go on a tear from mid-December until mid-March when they unveil the Model Y, and probably until end-April.  That's what happened between late 2015 and Spring 2016 when the Model 3 was unveiled, and the Model X was establishing itself.  They should be profitable in Q4, probably to a greater extent than Q3.

If you zoom out a bit on  share price, TSLA is still >10% below its 2017 high, whereas AAPL is at about the same level as its 2017 high.  AMZN is about 25% above its 2017 high.  Because of Elon's odd tweets in the Summer, TSLA didn't go on a crazy rally like the other tech stocks, plus the Model 3 ramp was slower than expected (but ultimately successful).  Growth potential is undiminished.

Tesla has different issues to aapl and amzn. Aapl has saturation and product pricing to deal with in the mid term. Amzn is fundamentally overvalued. Tesla - the bond and it's (brilliant but crazy) CEO. But I agree with you in general. I've played it long many times too ? 

If you've found what works stick to it. I trade for fun and a little bit of side money. 

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12 hours ago, happyguy said:

if she is getting say £1000 a month and has no mortgage the costs will not be anywhere near that so it makes sense to keep it and keep an income coming in 

My wife has a unit in Adelaide, mortgage free and rented out. Net earnings are about 6K sterling. The income is declared here but she put the entire sum in to her AVC so gets full tax relief. 

Its still a pain for us because if we buy here we will get hit with a 3% SD surcharge but trying to persuade her to sell it is a fruitless task. 

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14 hours ago, longgone said:

does it matter ? no plebs control any assets they just think they do. 

 

Thank god for the crystal ball everyone had 

Look at the stock markets and GBPUSD charts for the last 100 years and tell me what you see. It’s fairly evident who is right in this conversation and who is being a fool.

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18 hours ago, Ballyk said:

I ignored all good investment advice and invested almost entirely in Tesla stock since 2013, following an argument with someone in the oil industry who said that electric cars were complete rubbish and that I was a complete idiot.

Haha. I think you are taking much more risk tha n any one buying bricks n mortar!

Over the 30 years ive been investing i doubt im past break even on stocks and shares. However on property and bitcoin up 400%! To the average person stocks are smoke n mirrors a syatem designed to eztract money from punters and rwturn to fund managers and hedge funds.

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8 minutes ago, GreenDevil said:

Haha. I think you are taking much more risk tha n any one buying bricks n mortar!

Over the 30 years ive been investing i doubt im past break even on stocks and shares. However on property and bitcoin up 400%! To the average person stocks are smoke n mirrors a syatem designed to eztract money from punters and rwturn to fund managers and hedge funds.

Over the last 30 years you made no money in stocks? You clearly haven’t been buying and holding the broad market. You have not been investing in stocks, you have been gambling with them!

Edited by Burbujista
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10 minutes ago, Burbujista said:

Over the last 30 years you made no money in stocks? You clearly haven’t been buying and holding the broad market. You have not been investing in stocks, you have been gambling with them!

Fully agreed. Trading is very hard. Buying and holding is much easier and yes, very lucrative.

I suspect the advantage that property holds for the average Joe is that he is forced to buy and hold, whereas he'll get sucked into sentiment based speculating with funds or individual shares.

Edited by Si1
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29 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Fully agreed. Trading is very hard. Buying and holding is much easier and yes, very lucrative.

I suspect the advantage that property holds for the average Joe is that he is forced to buy and hold, whereas he'll get sucked into sentiment based speculating with funds or individual shares.

Trading is hard and makes the “bad guys” money. I just don’t trade because I know I am bad at it and I allow my broker (fees) and the traders (spreads) to make money from my actions. Whatever will happen wont’t bankrupt me and I will be getting dividends along the way (which are the final goal in stocks, btw).

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52 minutes ago, GreenDevil said:

Haha. I think you are taking much more risk tha n any one buying bricks n mortar!

Over the 30 years ive been investing i doubt im past break even on stocks and shares. However on property and bitcoin up 400%! To the average person stocks are smoke n mirrors a syatem designed to eztract money from punters and rwturn to fund managers and hedge funds.

All my pension funds & PEPs now ISA's are up 5 to 10 times over 30 years. Performance has improved since transferring everything in to www.fundsmith.co.uk nearly 6 years ago.

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1 minute ago, Fatmanfilms said:

All my pension funds & PEPs now ISA's are up 5 to 10 times over 30 years. Performance has improved since transferring everything in to www.fundsmith.co.uk nearly 6 years ago.

Fundsmith has performed spectacularly.. Interesting to wonder how long will it last? Is it the new BH?

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3 hours ago, Burbujista said:

Look at the stock markets and GBPUSD charts for the last 100 years and tell me what you see. It’s fairly evident who is right in this conversation and who is being a fool.

i don`t have years to wait.  any cash i have will be going into a house eventually so makes no difference to me.  maybe future taxed earnings would need to be invested in a more tax efficient way though to get the best out of them.  

not risking hundreds of thousands to make 4% a year. 

 

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3 hours ago, GreenDevil said:

Haha. I think you are taking much more risk tha n any one buying bricks n mortar!

Over the 30 years ive been investing i doubt im past break even on stocks and shares. However on property and bitcoin up 400%! To the average person stocks are smoke n mirrors a syatem designed to eztract money from punters and rwturn to fund managers and hedge funds.

indeed make the plebs think they have a stake in the system.  better off becoming a professional gambler  

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4 hours ago, GreenDevil said:

Haha. I think you are taking much more risk tha n any one buying bricks n mortar!

Over the 30 years ive been investing I doubt im past break even on stocks and shares. However on property and bitcoin up 400%! To the average person stocks are smoke n mirrors a syatem designed to eztract money from punters and rwturn to fund managers and hedge funds.

jeez

 

you need to learn how to trade!

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2 hours ago, fru-gal said:

I agree with this. Also, the generation that tends to have the most wealth via housing is the older generation (who are dying off) and younger people are more likely to vote Labour (who are far more in favour of taxing unearned wealth/housing) than income (although they want to do that too) but they would certainly tax wealth far more than the Tories (who are the party of the boomers/pensioners). 

The Tories are the party of lazy privilege.

The time that they represented normal people has gone, I don't think they even know what normal people are.

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2 hours ago, Si1 said:

The Tories are the party of lazy privilege.

The time that they represented normal people has gone, I don't think they even know what normal people are.

Not the only entitled and privileged in town....all walks of life, champagne socialists.....two widgets of debt for you three widgets for us, as opposed to trickle up economics, your country needs you......?

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43 minutes ago, winkie said:

Not the only entitled and privileged in town....all walks of life, champagne socialists.....two widgets of debt for you three widgets for us, as opposed to trickle up economics, your country needs you......?

I could call Jezza many things, but not a champagne socialist.

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On 22/11/2018 at 15:15, macca13 said:

Our U.K. debt is through the roof since 2008

A government eventually will have to find a way to reverse/pay down this debt! 

So its:

income tax increase?

land tax (bad if you have many houses)

Something has to change, our economy is not viable and will never be able to pay back our debts without some sort of wealth tax.. 

They can’t take anymore from those at the bottom, and they can’t really squeeze those in the middle too much without committing political suicide.. 

So houses are a massive storage of wealth that needs to be exploited, they caused most of the debt, so they should be responsible for repaying that debt! 

 

Or bail-ins.. ?

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