Adult social care and house prices

[user not found]

We have the growing problem of older folks needing social care (including residential), but council budgets being slashed. Some of the oldies own houses could be sold to pay for their care. Others don't.

Should we force the sale of property to fund care? Or apply a second charge to the property to recoup costs after death?

I ask as a council employee, and someone with aging parents. In Belgium I believe the children are legally required to care for their own parent.

What will all this do to house prices?

[spyguy]

Ah yes.

The situation I see where OAPS living in expensive houses are expecting working people to pay taxes to pay for some poor home help to travel miles from somewhere cheaper to live to look after them.

Set an upper limit fo 100k cost, to be paid from the estate.

Only offer 2h/day care - every thing more paid for by the estate.

Only cover the first 3 miles of carer transport/time. All extra miles are paid for by the OAP at 50p/mile.

It would be best for all parties insolved if OAPS needing >2 care were forced to live in towns in the same aoccomodation block.

They expect y9unge people to move to jobs to pay for taxes to support them.

 

[spyguy]

Council budgets are not being slashed.

Councils should have to declare all non statutory spending.

 

[spyguy]

And council tax payers be able to sue council officers if they wasted money on non stat spending.

 

[Dorkins]

In my opinion adult social care should be paid out of general taxation, and to pay for it a land value tax should be introduced and national insurance should be merged into income tax so that non-wage income is taxed at the same rate as wage income. This should provide a much more reliable supply of revenue to pay for adult social care than the ups and downs of the property market.

The question of the middle aged generation being legally required to provide the care to their parents is a difficult one. Governments have allowed the cost of living to rise so much that in many/most middle aged households both adults must work full time to keep the household running. It may not be financially possible for one of those adults to leave work to care for an older parent. The government could help by introducing some employment protections similar to maternity leave so that people could take time off work to provide the care. It would also help a lot if there was a basic income for all adults that people could live on when they take time off work to care for people in their family of any age.

[winkie]

I think all health requirements and treatments should be free...... long-term care should be provided for by self or family or community if it means having to sell assets or use savings so be it.......but there should be made available new ways in how care can be provided and new ways how possible future care can be paid for, with a rebate/refund if not required..... long-term care is a bit like long-term pension.....some have both, some one, some none.?

[monkeyman1974]

1 hour ago, Sausage said:

We have the growing problem of older folks needing social care (including residential), but council budgets being slashed. Some of the oldies own houses could be sold to pay for their care. Others don't.

Should we force the sale of property to fund care? Or apply a second charge to the property to recoup costs after death?

I ask as a council employee, and someone with aging parents. In Belgium I believe the children are legally required to care for their own parent.

What will all this do to house prices?

Charge on house, all care set added up and recouped. If the family want to maximise their rake, then they care for their elderly. Subject possibly to a minimum depletion level, say £100,000 to be left in estate. Of course May tried this at the perceived height of her powers at the snap election, and got slaughter. All very strange, as it's entirely fair. If you have means, you pay for the care you specifically receive. If you don't have means you can't pay, so you need the state to deliver.

[monkeyman1974]

56 minutes ago, spyguy said:

And council tax payers be able to sue council officers if they wasted money on non stat spending.

 

spent 95% of my career in private practice and 5% in public. The private sector waste was much greater as a rule. It was least wasteful in retail sector and most wasteful in banking (which you could argue is public sector given the bailouts I guess!). Public sector seems obsessed with switching off the lights - saving the pennies, and could actually do with investing a bit sometimes to make greater saving - saving the pounds. 

[onlooker]

44 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

In my opinion adult social care should be paid out of general taxation, and to pay for it a land value tax should be introduced and national insurance should be merged into income tax so that non-wage income is taxed at the same rate as wage income. This should provide a much more reliable supply of revenue to pay for adult social care than the ups and downs of the property market.

The question of the middle aged generation being legally required to provide the care to their parents is a difficult one. Governments have allowed the cost of living to rise so much that in many/most middle aged households both adults must work full time to keep the household running. It may not be financially possible for one of those adults to leave work to care for an older parent. The government could help by introducing some employment protections similar to maternity leave so that people could take time off work to provide the care. It would also help a lot if there was a basic income for all adults that people could live on when they take time off work to care for people in their family of any age.

As a result of the abolition of share dividend tax credits, such income (outside of ISAs) is now taxed at a similar level to earnings.

The three problems with care for the aged remain 1) costs continue to spiral because cheaper routes are not deemed to be socially acceptable*, 2) loading more taxation onto higher earners to pay for those who don't work, is an increasing disincentive to work more/work harder, and 3) local authorities game the system by paying nursing homes (in some cases) 50% less than nursing homes charge self payers..

*By which I mean lower cost and smaller nursing homes are being forcibly closed on HSE grounds because they are deemed not to come up to the standards provided by the big players in the industry.

[honkydonkey]

If charges are put on houses then all people will do is transfer ownership to their children and live free, or pay rent to further diminish their wealth way before old age begins to bite.

I don't see how working all your life and ending up in a nursing home, paying £1000 a week from a charge on your house, while the person sitting next to you pays nothing is any way fair. Nothing will be done to address this though, as it will be shouted down as discriminatory, social cleansing etc. 

Get ready for increased taxation from your pay, and keep your fingers crossed medical science doesn't keep improving (what a thing to wish for lol).

What I don't understand is how a nursing home with say 5 members of staff on minimum wage requires £25,000 a week to stay afloat, assuming 25 residents at £1k a pop. My nan was in a home with these numbers, and I think there was only a couple of nurses on shift at any given time. This was in rural Norfolk, so not exactly prime location.

 

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, monkeyman1974 said:

spent 95% of my career in private practice and 5% in public. The private sector waste was much greater as a rule. It was least wasteful in retail sector and most wasteful in banking (which you could argue is public sector given the bailouts I guess!). Public sector seems obsessed with switching off the lights - saving the pennies, and could actually do with investing a bit sometimes to make greater saving - saving the pounds. 

No.

Having someone turning off lights shows how p1sspoor public sector is. You get rid of the person turning off the lights and close the office.

The highest cost in 90% of orgs is labour.

Private sector, as a whole runs tight - way too tight in some places.

Public sector is beyond a joke - head on long term sick, being replaced by someone else on long term sick, so get a temp in.

3 people working flextime doung 1 persons job etc etc.

 

[winkie]

13 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

If charges are put on houses then all people will do is transfer ownership to their children and live free, or pay rent to further diminish their wealth way before old age begins to bite.

I don't see how working all your life and ending up in a nursing home, paying £1000 a week from a charge on your house, while the person sitting next to you pays nothing is any way fair. Nothing will be done to address this though, as it will be shouted down as discriminatory, social cleansing etc. 

Get ready for increased taxation from your pay, and keep your fingers crossed medical science doesn't keep improving (what a thing to wish for lol).

What I don't understand is how a nursing home with say 5 members of staff on minimum wage requires £25,000 a week to stay afloat, assuming 25 residents at £1k a pop. My nan was in a home with these numbers, and I think there was only a couple of nurses on shift at any given time. This was in rural Norfolk, so not exactly prime location.

 

Nobody is forcing people to work all their lives accumulating assets or wealth......if you happen to make the right choices in life and are fortunate to have surplus, you should pay for your own needs......some people have a family who are prepared to forfeit earning power for caring power......some work so hard all their lives they die when their body wears out before their minds wear out...... generally people living well during their life with few vices live longer, so have a higher probability of requiring help to live longer in later life.....swings and roundabouts.....nothing is guaranteed......if fearful of what might happen, voluntary pay the extra cost of insurance, no fear carry on regardless, what is the point of worrying about something that may never happen.?

[EssKay]

31 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

Get ready for increased taxation from your pay, and keep your fingers crossed medical science doesn't keep improving (what a thing to wish for lol).

 

Increased taxation is clearly the way its going to go given the reaction at the last general election to the revolutionary concept of making people pay for their own care.

 

Your second point is an interesting one. Are we now at a point where continually advancing medical science to keep people simply existing is counter productive?

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for extending the amount of time people can live full, active lives, but recent advances seem to be simply stopping people from dying whilst making them more and more dependant on increasingly expensive care

[Dorkins]

2 hours ago, onlooker said:

As a result of the abolition of share dividend tax credits, such income (outside of ISAs) is now taxed at a similar level to earnings.

A pensioner on £25k pays 20% marginal rate, a worker on £25k pays 32% marginal rate when you include NI.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Dorkins

[Dorkins]

48 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

If charges are put on houses then all people will do is transfer ownership to their children and live free

 

Very easy to close that loophole, just introduce taxes and thresholds on gifts.

[Dorkins]

49 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

Get ready for increased taxation from your pay

Hmm, maybe. If the Conservatives are ever going to win another election they need to start picking up some votes from 30 and 40somethings. Constantly hitting that age group up for money to pay for older people who are more affluent than they will ever be is not the way to do that.

[Ash4781]

If it’s not individuals it’ll be effectively general taxation because the Treasury / DCLG will step in to support a council.

Presumably one can offset pension provisions. I have no idea of the cost of care provisions (eg. Basic end and specialist). What are we talking about at the basic end - staff 24/7 in a 1:5 ratio or something, meals, heating ?  I imagine could get expensive very quickly for specialist care. For now maybe if capable just find someone to care / visit in your own home ? 

 

[Fishfinger]

6 hours ago, Sausage said:

We have the growing problem of older folks needing social care (including residential), but council budgets being slashed. Some of the oldies own houses could be sold to pay for their care. Others don't.

Should we force the sale of property to fund care? Or apply a second charge to the property to recoup costs after death?

I ask as a council employee, and someone with aging parents. In Belgium I believe the children are legally required to care for their own parent.

What will all this do to house prices?

There's a lot of Daily Mail type ignorance about this issue so let's clear it up for once and for all.

If you've savings over £23,250 you're"self funding" your care costs. The only govt financial assistance is the attendance allowance which works out a couple of thousand per year at the lower band.

If your savings go below £23,250 the council will chip in for 90 days and if you've a house they can legally expect you to sell that house within that period. Depending on the council, if you can't sell the house then they may offer a loan or put a charge against the house.

Any council that doesn't count the home as capital deserves to go bankrupt.

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/means-tests-for-help-with-care-costs-how-they-work

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Fishfinger

[adarmo]

3 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Very easy to close that loophole, just introduce taxes and thresholds on gifts.

It's partially closed for iht purposes. The old gift and live rent free doesn't cut it unless you then pay rent at a commercial rate. 

[Steppenpig]

10 hours ago, Sausage said:

In Belgium I believe the children are legally required to care for their own parent.

In Germany you are obliged to contribute to your parents care, although it is supposedly a quite modest amount for an average earner.

[monkeyman1974]

8 hours ago, spyguy said:

No.

Having someone turning off lights shows how p1sspoor public sector is. You get rid of the person turning off the lights and close the office.

The highest cost in 90% of orgs is labour.

Private sector, as a whole runs tight - way too tight in some places.

Public sector is beyond a joke - head on long term sick, being replaced by someone else on long term sick, so get a temp in.

3 people working flextime doung 1 persons job etc etc.

 

Well, if you've said no, you must be right. At least I acknowledge my experience as anecdotal. 

[micawber]

Quote

 

• Raise state pension age to 75
• Combine IT and NI, and raise rates appropriately, combined with elimination of tax free allowance (even lower paid need to have some skin in the game)
• Incorporate Adult Social Care into NHS responsibility and fund appropriately
• Legalise Euthanasia
• Remove duties on Tobacco and Alcohol and allow smoking in pubs and clubs
• Legalise Drugs and Sell via State
• Tax lifetime gifts
• Tax surplus estate above 100k
• Tax second homes
• Reduce VAT to 5% (to support lower paid)

[macca13]

11 hours ago, Sausage said:

We have the growing problem of older folks needing social care (including residential), but council budgets being slashed. Some of the oldies own houses could be sold to pay for their care. Others don't.

Mrs grandad just went into care home last week.. £1100 per week.. house, savings, pension.. they will take the lot! 

funny enough old Philip Hammond owns/builds care homes as well as houses.. so my guess would be he will want to steel houses to trouser the money.. 

[Dorkins]

1 hour ago, Steppenpig said:

In Germany you are obliged to contribute to your parents care, although it is supposedly a quite modest amount for an average earner.

I guess if they made it too expensive it might lead to a sudden and inexplicable drop in life expectancy.

[ElPapasito]

16 minutes ago, micawber said:

• Raise state pension age to 75
• Combine IT and NI, and raise rates appropriately, combined with elimination of tax free allowance (even lower paid need to have some skin in the game)
• Incorporate Adult Social Care into NHS responsibility and fund appropriately
• Legalise Euthanasia
• Remove duties on Tobacco and Alcohol and allow smoking in pubs and clubs
• Legalise Drugs and Sell via State
• Tax lifetime gifts
• Tax surplus estate above 100k
• Tax second homes
• Reduce VAT to 5% (to support lower paid)

? Why do that in relation to funding of social care?