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wsn03

Can't even view unless you've sold - really?

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I was recently told I could not view a house, the owner is only accepting viewings from people who have sold already.

His stupid overpriced sh1thole has zero chance of a sale because it is about 50k overpriced in a market that is clearly stagnating. The area is Warwick, except his house is in a modern development quite far from Warwick that everyone knows isn't Warwick - it has some pretty derogatory names attached to it.

We were going to view because the wife was interested in looking at the time when I was still open to the idea of a modern housing estate - thankfully that option is now not an option.

I was amazed at the arrogance of the vendor. Apparently here it is rare that an offer will be accepted unless you are already sold. ?!? Is that just round here, in prosperous Warwick where all roads lead to JLR which is doing fine thank you very much and has absolutely no issues on the horizon what-so-ever?

I bought my last house in 2005 - I didn't even have my house on the  market and my offer was accepted. Now I can't even view a house without being sold. Really? Good job the market isn't slowing down[because it isn't is it, everything should be fine for ever really] or vendors like these would be in for a tough time with that attitude.

Edited by wsn03

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Chains generally don’t work anymore. too many people over value their own house, and too many chains fail due to FT buyer issues. 

chain free is the only way the market really works anymore. if the person selling wants it sold in say 8 months instead of 3 years he will not want chain buyers. 

seems sensible enough. the whole buying part of a chain is one long circle of delusion and endless breaking of the chain. 

At current prices it’s hard to find a proceedable buyer. 

if your serious about moving then sell your place and move to rented in the mean-time. 

also there are loads of 'second steppers' who bought using HTB on new-builds, they think their house is worth what they paid (after-all they paid it!), and of course its worth what they paid plus say 10%, and of course their newish houses are tiny and poorly built, so naturally its time for the second step, but of course they would never sell at what they think its worth, but they are happy to make offers as part of a chain with their fantasy equity. When in truth these second steppers are effectively in massive debt with no equity. Any new FTB's are also buying new builds, and no sane person would spend 40% extra over similar properties for their new-builds.

Reality is lacking in this market, i think the seller is being pretty pragmatic really. 

You may well be a good bet, but who's to say your house isnt going to be 'snapped up' with offers by someone who doesn't actually have any money? 

Edited by jiltedjen

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Tbh i wouldn't take viewings from people who are not proceedable. total waste of time. If they do manage to get an offer on their house they'd want to come back anyway to view again and there could be several of others who don't. 

The damage though is really when some not on the market numpty thinks there place will sell quickly and for loads more than it's worth and goes full asking price offer mode on the place they want to buy. So now the numpty has to get there house on market, and find a buyer and get top dollar.

Some people go around driving cars they can't currently purchase so as fun as it is, it is a waste of time. 

Until you have an offer on your place you won't know exactly how much youll be getting for it and only really at that point is it worth going ahead. 

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1 hour ago, jiltedjen said:

When in truth these second steppers are effectively in massive debt with no equity. 

The mental illness is encouraged as normal.  They will never achieve a Sale, at that price with that caveat. 

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6 minutes ago, adarmo said:

Tbh i wouldn't take viewings from people who are not proceedable. total waste of time. If they do manage to get an offer on their house they'd want to come back anyway to view again and there could be several of others who don't. 

The damage though is really when some not on the market numpty thinks there place will sell quickly and for loads more than it's worth and goes full asking price offer mode on the place they want to buy. So now the numpty has to get there house on market, and find a buyer and get top dollar.

Until you have an offer on your place you won't know exactly how much youll be getting for it and only really at that point is it worth going ahead. 

I would agree with restricting viewings if there are large numbers of proceedable buyers making viewings, but otherwise it's best to let people who may soon become proceedable view as well.

Some vendors go further and accept offers from people who aren't proceedable (whilst I probably wouldn't do this, I think I can see why: "OK you want to buy our house and are prepared to pay a reasonable amount. We provisionally accept your offer and you have a few weeks to accept an offer on your house.")

 

If a vendor or EA only allowed viewings to vendors who have received an offer, would they place similar restrictions on first time buyers: "We'll only let you view if you've shown us proof of deposit and mortgage agreement." I've only heard one EA (from a big chain) claim they do this and frankly I'm sceptical.

I think in general EAs don't mind viewings which aren't yet proceedable, or if people can't quite afford a property. They realise you could soon become proceedable and they think in a lot of cases you'll ask for BOMAD help if you're a little short.

If you've seen a property and are interested, the EA can check your interest later easily with a quick phone call. If someone else has offered, they can ask if you're now in a position to offer and would like to place a higher offer. They aren't going to call and ask if you'd like to view at that stage, so they weaken the vendor's bargaining position (this is worse for the vendor than for the EA to be honest).

 

12 minutes ago, adarmo said:

Until you have an offer on your place you won't know exactly how much youll be getting for it and only really at that point is it worth going ahead. 

This isn't an always important factor. Say someone is selling their house and buying jointly with a partner, so perhaps doubling our more their borrowing and also have significant savings, a difference of 10% or so on their sale isn't going to be a deal-breaker. They can have pretty good idea of what they can afford.

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I'm finding this thread interesting.  I'm a first time second buyer, in that the house we bought as first time buyers has just gone on the market.  Being a first time buyer was easy, but I've never done this before, so I really wasn't sure what the etiquette is.

We've decided we're doing only "drive-by" viewings for the time being, as we don't want to waste anyone's time as it's quite likely that anything we see at the moment will be sold by the time we have a buyer.

We're doing viewings ourselves, and my personal policy is that I don't ask anyone viewing anything, as I don't want to risk offending anyone who might be a potential buyer.  Someone daydreaming today might just be a proceedable buyer in a month's time.

I'd think someone was an idiot if they enquired as to my position if I wanted to view their house.  I'd expect it from an agent, but not from a seller.

Perhaps next to the Jaguar Land Rover factory is a special case though, if people are running round begging for houses waving wads of cash in the air then I suppose it's a seller's market.  I still wouldn't turn anyone away if I was the seller though.

If an offer is received then that is the point at which the potential buyer's position becomes relevant, not before.

If we got an "offer" from someone who hadn't sold then I'd want to know which house it was so that I could check its value, and I'd probably suggest lowering the price if they were serious.  I'd certainly provisionally accept their offer but definitely wouldn't change the status to Sold until they (and their buyer, and buyer's buyer etc) were all ready to go.

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33 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

Say someone is selling their house and buying jointly with a partner, so perhaps doubling our more their borrowing and also have significant savings....

It helps also if they sh1t candy cotton.  With MMR, space cadet house prices, and wage stagnating, reality is fleeting visitor.  Joe Public hasn’t got broad shoulders to be loaded with debt.

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I'd imagine that estate agents with static or declining stock, struggling to pay bills and reducing working hours would be doing exactly what you're experiencing wsn03. Estate agents don't have time to sharpen pencils, surf the net AND show unprocedable folk around houses . It's not personal!

What is an offer from someone who hasn't sold actually worth at the moment? What will that offer be worth in a month or two's time?

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2 hours ago, Freezer? Best place for it said:

It helps also if they sh1t candy cotton.  With MMR, space cadet house prices, and wage stagnating, reality is fleeting visitor.  Joe Public hasn’t got broad shoulders to be loaded with debt.

Are people still allowed to use cash? Some people have significant liquid assets. They might need to sell their house, but not have to rely on getting a particularly good price.

Would you prepared to acknowledge that someone who is downsizing can probably still afford to buy even if they sell for less than they expect.

Edited by Kosmin

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23 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

Would you prepared to acknowledge that someone who is downsizing can probably still afford to buy even if they sell for less than they expect.

I would - but the GENERAL mentality spread by the MSM and V.I.’s is property only goes up, not to “given away”, it’s special and my pension.

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I would be very reticent about accepting an offer from someone who does not already have a sale agreed on their property. If I plan to buy again, I will definitely wait for an offer before pushing ahead with any purchase.

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Just to be clear this wasnt an offer, it was only a viewing.

We have a house on the market, wifes house only going on the market tomorrow but with a cash buyer already waiting.

The bank have said they'd lend to us before we even sell. Our financial position is very strong. 

 

To decline a viewing because we haven't yet sold to me is very short-sighted. The missus would have gone for it. Lucky escape for me now that I've found an non -crappy house that isnt on an estate

The large driveway on this place is actually someone elses right of way. The place is so overpriced its untrue.

Anyone relying on JLR now is in for a shock. The car industry is in for a rocky ride

Edited by wsn03

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1 hour ago, Ah-so said:

I would be very reticent about accepting an offer from someone who does not already have a sale agreed on their property. If I plan to buy again, I will definitely wait for an offer before pushing ahead with any purchase.

The question is: "Would you accept a viewing from someone who does not already have a sale agreed?"

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HPI means for many there is no ladder... HTB and other props such as shared ownership makes things worse.. Most people are not in a position to buy until they have someone who is in a position to buy theirs.... You can view online and drive by.. So yes agree about not showing to people who are not yet ready or able to buy. 😉

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13 hours ago, Kosmin said:

I would agree with restricting viewings if there are large numbers of proceedable buyers making viewings, but otherwise it's best to let people who may soon become proceedable view as well.

Some vendors go further and accept offers from people who aren't proceedable (whilst I probably wouldn't do this, I think I can see why: "OK you want to buy our house and are prepared to pay a reasonable amount. We provisionally accept your offer and you have a few weeks to accept an offer on your house.")

 

If a vendor or EA only allowed viewings to vendors who have received an offer, would they place similar restrictions on first time buyers: "We'll only let you view if you've shown us proof of deposit and mortgage agreement." I've only heard one EA (from a big chain) claim they do this and frankly I'm sceptical.

I think in general EAs don't mind viewings which aren't yet proceedable, or if people can't quite afford a property. They realise you could soon become proceedable and they think in a lot of cases you'll ask for BOMAD help if you're a little short.

If you've seen a property and are interested, the EA can check your interest later easily with a quick phone call. If someone else has offered, they can ask if you're now in a position to offer and would like to place a higher offer. They aren't going to call and ask if you'd like to view at that stage, so they weaken the vendor's bargaining position (this is worse for the vendor than for the EA to be honest).

 

This isn't an always important factor. Say someone is selling their house and buying jointly with a partner, so perhaps doubling our more their borrowing and also have significant savings, a difference of 10% or so on their sale isn't going to be a deal-breaker. They can have pretty good idea of what they can afford.

I disagree. I actually have several years experience working for local estate agencies (whilst at uni and for a period afterwards while I was looking at a suitably dull graduate scheme). The potential buyer may soon become proceedable, they may not. If and when they do they can view. It is a total waste of time viewing something you can't buy, and a waste of the EA's time and the vendor's time too. 

Some people would take offers from said numpties who weren't yet even on the market (btw they generally are clueless as to what their house will sell for). Normally in this situation the vendor accepts the offer (normally easy to get the buyer up to full asking price because that what the Vendor would want to remove it from Rightmove etc. Numpty goes for top dollar (the sort who think houses always sell quickly in their highly desirable [read suitably drab and boring development] road) can't sell at that price, lowers their asking price and eventually takes a lower offer meaning they now need to reduce their offer. Vendor has lost out on marketing and lost time and the EA (spare a thought lol) has delayed their sale. 

Most EAs (pretty much anything owned by the hateful Countrywide brand) are targeted on viewings per day, mortgage appointments and conveyancing sales so you're correct in that they probably do not mind doing a pointless viewing because they have pointless targets to hit.

A difference of 10% would make a massive difference. You take the full asking price offer (£500k) from numpty, then he comes back a month later having taken 10% less on his £300k place (now £270k). Ignoring the LTV which is very important for securing a decent interest rate, you're now good to take £470k from numpty when you accepted £500k? 

Often, numpty will come along and fire in the offer, then trundle off and get their place on the market with the highest valuation and the lowest fee - pretty standard across the board tbh - in the mean time Vendor sits there thinking brilliant £500k. Keeps marketing the place and batting away offers below that. Then the reality hits the numpty etc. 

When I sell this place the only non-proceedable people I'll take a viewing from (and this is a nice tip btw when negotiating a lower fee with a decent local EA) are local people with a house to sell since that is probably the second best source of new Vendors for the EA. 

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If will depend on market dynamics....if it's a buyers market and sellers are competing to sell then I would expect them to allow viewings from folk that haven't sold. Vendor here has assessed the market as not being as such...he assessed the market as being a sellers market with buyers competing and believes he can call the shots. He may be right I don't know that market but I hope he is wrong.  Due to the deliberate policy of restrictions on supply and stoking of demand it has been more often than not a sellers market in England as the ptb like it. Potential Buyers fighting over limited stock and sellers looking down their noses at the great unwashed aspiring to decent shelter....

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10 hours ago, wsn03 said:

Just to be clear this wasnt an offer, it was only a viewing.

We have a house on the market, wifes house only going on the market tomorrow but with a cash buyer already waiting.

The bank have said they'd lend to us before we even sell. Our financial position is very strong

 

To decline a viewing because we haven't yet sold to me is very short-sighted. The missus would have gone for it. Lucky escape for me now that I've found an non -crappy house that isnt on an estate

The large driveway on this place is actually someone elses right of way. The place is so overpriced its untrue.

Anyone relying on JLR now is in for a shock. The car industry is in for a rocky ride

I do not follow. 

Your wife has a cash buyer but you're still putting the house on the market? Why when you have a buyer?

Also, you can buy the house without selling the other two you currently own? So you are actually a proceedable buyer provided you're prepared to take the bridging loan or additional mortgage so I'd give that position back to the EA. 

I'm pleased you managed to talk the wife around from a development. I was at a BBQ a couple of weeks ago on a newbuild just up the road from me and it's pretty dreadful. Everyone with a PCP car and living in a HTB house. Tiny garden, overlooked and all houses were on three floors so will be pretty dark in the winter on the ground floor. Not my cup of tea at all but then they probably don't have to keep fixing all the stuff that I have to in my mid century but otherwise bomb proof place (with a massive plot and lots of parking). 

Regarding the right of way, provided they have had and maintained access for a period of time (I can't recall the exact period) you're covered but granted it could be a ballache if the landowner kicks off. We have a similar situation here with a service road behind us serving the Victorian houses either side and the old owner just signed a declaration which is apparently good enough. Obviously though you can use it to batter them down on price.

Good luck!

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13 hours ago, Tes Tickle said:

I'm finding this thread interesting.  I'm a first time second buyer, in that the house we bought as first time buyers has just gone on the market.  Being a first time buyer was easy, but I've never done this before, so I really wasn't sure what the etiquette is.

We've decided we're doing only "drive-by" viewings for the time being, as we don't want to waste anyone's time as it's quite likely that anything we see at the moment will be sold by the time we have a buyer.

We're doing viewings ourselves, and my personal policy is that I don't ask anyone viewing anything, as I don't want to risk offending anyone who might be a potential buyer.  Someone daydreaming today might just be a proceedable buyer in a month's time.

I'd think someone was an idiot if they enquired as to my position if I wanted to view their house.  I'd expect it from an agent, but not from a seller.

Perhaps next to the Jaguar Land Rover factory is a special case though, if people are running round begging for houses waving wads of cash in the air then I suppose it's a seller's market.  I still wouldn't turn anyone away if I was the seller though.

If an offer is received then that is the point at which the potential buyer's position becomes relevant, not before.

If we got an "offer" from someone who hadn't sold then I'd want to know which house it was so that I could check its value, and I'd probably suggest lowering the price if they were serious.  I'd certainly provisionally accept their offer but definitely wouldn't change the status to Sold until they (and their buyer, and buyer's buyer etc) were all ready to go.

This

I recently viewed a house where it was very popular

10 bids in first week

most full price me 10% off proceedable no chain

All others in chain and vendor went with a full price offer with someone who had an offer accepted on their house (but not exchanged).

If you have a overpriced house to sell its just numbers.... if you actually have to spend 400K or a large part thereof that is actual money.

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42 minutes ago, adarmo said:

I do not follow. 

Your wife has a cash buyer but you're still putting the house on the market? Why when you have a buyer?

Also, you can buy the house without selling the other two you currently own? So you are actually a proceedable buyer provided you're prepared to take the bridging loan or additional mortgage so I'd give that position back to the EA. 

I'm pleased you managed to talk the wife around from a development. I was at a BBQ a couple of weeks ago on a newbuild just up the road from me and it's pretty dreadful. Everyone with a PCP car and living in a HTB house. Tiny garden, overlooked and all houses were on three floors so will be pretty dark in the winter on the ground floor. Not my cup of tea at all but then they probably don't have to keep fixing all the stuff that I have to in my mid century but otherwise bomb proof place (with a massive plot and lots of parking). 

Regarding the right of way, provided they have had and maintained access for a period of time (I can't recall the exact period) you're covered but granted it could be a ballache if the landowner kicks off. We have a similar situation here with a service road behind us serving the Victorian houses either side and the old owner just signed a declaration which is apparently good enough. Obviously though you can use it to batter them down on price.

Good luck!

I was put off by the sheer arrogance to be honest. At the time I had an extra option, my Chairman was going to lend me the money for anything I wanted such was his urgency to get me onboard to start running his company without any stress at my end.

So f em!!!

Sadly he died 3 weeks ago. Im still going to be running his company but the subsequent restructure has delayed our plans to December - long story but his succeeding brother has offered me the same but I won't need it. The guy was amazing, I've lost a good friend and now I have to carry on his legacy without him, huge boots to fill but that is another story. 

Meanwhile Ive escaped the whole idea of buying a horrible new home, a very very lucky escape.

The arrogance of estate agents round here defies belief, I welcome the crash. Luckily the ones im dealing with now are pretty good and pretty honest, rare.

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I'm wondering whether it's possible that there's an explanation for his arrogance, in that he may already have an offer that's proceedable but below the asking price.  If so he may be about to accept it or may have already, in which case you're going to have to be the dream buyer to get through the door, and I could understand being a bit arrogant about it.

Either that or he's just an idiot.

We're deliberately avoiding anything built in the last 20-30 years, they're all nasty tightly packed plasterboard boxes.  I reckon many will be due for demolition within 50 years.

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30 minutes ago, Tes Tickle said:

I'm wondering whether it's possible that there's an explanation for his arrogance, in that he may already have an offer that's proceedable but below the asking price.  If so he may be about to accept it or may have already, in which case you're going to have to be the dream buyer to get through the door, and I could understand being a bit arrogant about it.

Either that or he's just an idiot.

We're deliberately avoiding anything built in the last 20-30 years, they're all nasty tightly packed plasterboard boxes.  I reckon many will be due for demolition within 50 years.

I don't think he has a buyer, its so overpriced. I was only viewing because the wife wanted to see it because she was looking at allll options at the time.  If she had liked it i would have gone for it then because I had little interest in the process, she was choosing until I realised her choices weren't working out.

 

You're right about 50 years!!!

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On 30/08/2018 at 00:45, wsn03 said:

I was recently told I could not view a house, the owner is only accepting viewings from people who have sold already.

His stupid overpriced sh1thole has zero chance of a sale because it is about 50k overpriced in a market that is clearly stagnating. The area is Warwick, except his house is in a modern development quite far from Warwick that everyone knows isn't Warwick - it has some pretty derogatory names attached to it.

We were going to view because the wife was interested in looking at the time when I was still open to the idea of a modern housing estate - thankfully that option is now not an option.

I was amazed at the arrogance of the vendor. Apparently here it is rare that an offer will be accepted unless you are already sold. ?!? Is that just round here, in prosperous Warwick where all roads lead to JLR which is doing fine thank you very much and has absolutely no issues on the horizon what-so-ever?

I bought my last house in 2005 - I didn't even have my house on the  market and my offer was accepted. Now I can't even view a house without being sold. Really? Good job the market isn't slowing down[because it isn't is it, everything should be fine for ever really] or vendors like these would be in for a tough time with that attitude.

 

On 30/08/2018 at 06:39, jiltedjen said:

Chains generally don’t work anymore. too many people over value their own house, and too many chains fail due to FT buyer issues. 

chain free is the only way the market really works anymore. if the person selling wants it sold in say 8 months instead of 3 years he will not want chain buyers. 

seems sensible enough. the whole buying part of a chain is one long circle of delusion and endless breaking of the chain. 

At current prices it’s hard to find a proceedable buyer. 

if your serious about moving then sell your place and move to rented in the mean-time. 

also there are loads of 'second steppers' who bought using HTB on new-builds, they think their house is worth what they paid (after-all they paid it!), and of course its worth what they paid plus say 10%, and of course their newish houses are tiny and poorly built, so naturally its time for the second step, but of course they would never sell at what they think its worth, but they are happy to make offers as part of a chain with their fantasy equity. When in truth these second steppers are effectively in massive debt with no equity. Any new FTB's are also buying new builds, and no sane person would spend 40% extra over similar properties for their new-builds.

Reality is lacking in this market, i think the seller is being pretty pragmatic really. 

You may well be a good bet, but who's to say your house isnt going to be 'snapped up' with offers by someone who doesn't actually have any money? 

 

On 30/08/2018 at 08:18, adarmo said:

Tbh i wouldn't take viewings from people who are not proceedable. total waste of time. If they do manage to get an offer on their house they'd want to come back anyway to view again and there could be several of others who don't. 

The damage though is really when some not on the market numpty thinks there place will sell quickly and for loads more than it's worth and goes full asking price offer mode on the place they want to buy. So now the numpty has to get there house on market, and find a buyer and get top dollar.

Some people go around driving cars they can't currently purchase so as fun as it is, it is a waste of time. 

Until you have an offer on your place you won't know exactly how much youll be getting for it and only really at that point is it worth going ahead. 

 Agreed with a lot of the points above.

Usually an EA will allow viewings from non proceedable buyers. Hence you get someone who isnt proceedable but who can proceed if they manage to sell their price at actual value + 75k. This is then used to leverage the proceedable buyer to pay more as 'There is an offer on the table at asking'.

However in a broken market this is irrelevant. Hence the reason why the vendor is asking for 'proceeable buyers'. It also gets the reasonable offers, not the fantasy offers. 

I think now its just a waiting game. Express interest as a proceedable buyer and dont even offer. Just wait. The EA is then surprised that you dont even offer, just say its too expensive and  will reconsider when the vendor reduces his price. Im finding a lot of stuff sticking now. No offers EAs chasing me. Market is surely dead. EAs will reduce asking prices. Now is the wait until the seller has to sell and is reasonable with his prices.

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  • 261 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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