Baby Boomers require yet more special treatment

[disenfranchised]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/24/scrapping-stamp-duty-pensioners-would-free-millions-homes-growing/

[Dorkins]

Is the Telegraph even a newspaper any more? It just seems like outright lobbying for the interests of the propertied these days.

[Confusion of VIs]

2 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

. WIs the Telegraph even a newspaper any more? It just seems like outright lobbying for the interests of the propertied these days.

The reality is stamp duty is stopping people downsizing.

Where I live there a lots of 5/6 bedroom properties lived in by pensioner couples in their late 60s/70s/80s, almost  no one thinks of downsizing as they would rather invest the +£100k cost of moving into staying in their family house.

Stamp duty is a terrible tax that reduces mobility, it should be replaced by an increased council tax. 

[Dorkins]

7 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Stamp duty is a terrible tax that reduces mobility, it should be replaced by an increased council tax. 

I agree that stamp duty is a bad tax. As such it should be abolished for everybody, not just wealthy pensioners.

[Si1]

Just now, Dorkins said:

I agree that stamp duty is a bad tax. As such it should be abolished for everybody, not just wealthy pensioners.

This

[Dorkins]

It reminds me a bit of the WASPI campaigners you frequently come across on politics Twitter. "Ooh I'm so hard done by, I can't retire at 60 and have to wait a few more years". Are they campaigning to have the state pension age lowered for everybody? Of course not, they're perfectly happy for younger people to retire at 68 or later, they just want special treatment for themselves. Comes at a price though, if you're only campaigning for yourself you'll find it hard to recruit people to your cause.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Dorkins

[mrtickle]

2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The reality is stamp duty is stopping people downsizing.

Where I live there a lots of 5/6 bedroom properties lived in by pensioner couples in their late 60s/70s/80s, almost  no one thinks of downsizing as they would rather invest the +£100k cost of moving into staying in their family house.

Stamp duty is a terrible tax that reduces mobility, it should be replaced by an increased council tax. 

We are where we are.

Why do you put "the cost of moving" at £100k? That is your cost of all the legals and removal vans? It should be nowhere near that!

But even if it is that much, if you're selling a 5/6 bedroom property to downsize, what you SHOULD be buying will cost many hundreds of thousands less. You still get a big far profit to keep for yourself. No, I can't blame stamp duty, but I'm not surprised that the results of "a survey" was that stamp duty was claimed to be the "reason".

 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by mrtickle

[Peter Hun]

3 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The reality is stamp duty is stopping people downsizing.

Few people actually downsize, because they don't want to move.

[winkie]

3 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The reality is stamp duty is stopping people downsizing.

Where I live there a lots of 5/6 bedroom properties lived in by pensioner couples in their late 60s/70s/80s, almost  no one thinks of downsizing as they would rather invest the +£100k cost of moving into staying in their family house.

Stamp duty is a terrible tax that reduces mobility, it should be replaced by an increased council tax. 

Any downsize would save every year on CT all adds up over time... SD is only a one off tax. I very much doubt stamp duty is preventing people downsizing.... What can push a downsize is the cost of CT, cleaners, gardeners, home repairs and maintenance..... Not SD..... 

[Habeas Domus]

But thats the whole point of stamp duty - it's intended to discourage people from moving house, it's intended to prevent people from downsizing - that all helps to keep house prices high which is what most of the electorate wants.

We can all bleat about the housing crisis, but the fact is the UK population have repeatedly voted for high prices for decades - thats why political parties on both sides compete to come up with the best policies to pump the bubble ever higher.

It's going to take a big change in public opinion, right now even when a lot of people can see their children can't buy, their attitudes havent changed:  say Corbyn went into the next election saying "I will make house prices lower" he would still lose.

It is insane but people cannot get their head around the idea that life might just be better for everyone if house prices fell.

[durhamborn]

4 hours ago, Dorkins said:

It reminds me a bit of the WASPI campaigners you frequently come across on politics Twitter. "Ooh I'm so hard done by, I can't retire at 60 and have to wait a few more years". Are they campaigning to have the state pension age lowered for everybody? Of course not, they're perfectly happy for younger people to retire at 68 or later, they just want special treatment for themselves. Comes at a price though, if you're only campaigning for yourself you'll find it hard to recruit people to your cause.

Always reminds me of the unions.They gave away new workers final salary pensions as long as the present workers kept theirs.Shocking,but thats what happened.Its rife and always the same.The police and councils dont seem to care about the workers on low wages swallowing massive council taxes and increases as long as they get their big pensions at 55.The only answer for ordinary people is opt out.Tax allowance earnings only and do everything else for yourself in the extra time you have from that.The country has two sides now,those who take (from wealthy retired council workers to tax credit claims) to those being fleeced.Everyone has a duty to themselves not to be fleeced.

[nothernsoul]

We have lowest taxes on property in recorded  British history, some of lowest in the world. And yet moaning about paying what  little taxation is left because it will eat into unearned house inflation gains!  Why not raise council tax instead, already disproportionately paid by poorer people, in low value property areas, by individuals who rent who see zero asset appreciation?   Or raise VAT,   that again disproportionately  effects the poor.  Or make small business  suffer by raising their rates. Or why not income tax to further penalise earned income. Then if all else fails utilise the stealth tax that is inflation. Anything except touch unearned income on precious property. 

[Freki]

SDLT is a piss poor tax. It taxes the transaction and not the fact you hold property. 

It disincentivizes people from moving for whatever reason: new job in a new city, downsizing, upsizing. Sdlt is not something you want to pay every 2 or 3 years. 

It also increases cash requirement at the point of transaction. 

So yeah sdlt down, lvt up. 

About the 100k,

cost of moving is CGT on current property + sdlt on new property + moving costs + fees for selling your current property + buying costs 

So yeah it adds up 

[hurlerontheditch]

If there’s no stamp duty surely people flipping houses becomes a lot easier and would drive prices up 

[nothernsoul]

I would prefer a land value tax to stamp duty, i dont think it is great. But if stamp duty was removed i doubt we would see a LVT to replace it. The motivation to remove it is zero to do with encouraging downsizing and everything to do with greed and pushing up prices.  Council tax is a deliberately regressive tax, designed to not tax value of the property,  which is why owners of multi million pound properties in central london pay less than those in two bed terraces in northern england that are worth twenty times less. I dont think high taxes are a virtue, but if we have to have them much rather it was slanted towards wealth,  than earned income or genuine entrepreneurialism. 

[Dorkins]

10 hours ago, hurlerontheditch said:

If there’s no stamp duty surely people flipping houses becomes a lot easier and would drive prices up 

Flippers don't increase house prices, only credit availability can do that. If flippers are doing renovation work increased flipping might actually be a good thing for the state of the housing stock. With most BTLers following a 'buy and let rot' renovation strategy there needs to be somebody fixing houses up.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Few people actually downsize, because they don't want to move.

I always remember Joan Bakewell making a big fuss and starting a campaign to keep old people in their large family homes until near death, which put me off her. In order to do this they need some kind of financial assistance because of the heating and council tax etc

I mean how selfish, I know its a wrench to leave a family home in later life, but that's life, but to have an elderly person in a 5 bedroom plus house is just morally wrong

[Peter Hun]

15 hours ago, Habeas Domus said:

But thats the whole point of stamp duty - it's intended to discourage people from moving house, it's intended to prevent people from downsizing - that all helps to keep house prices high which is what most of the electorate wants.

Thats a twisted view. Its kills sales at higher prices and most definitely reduces prices when thy hit the higher brackets of £1million++

Which is anything over a two bed flat round my way.

[Peter Hun]

12 hours ago, hurlerontheditch said:

If there’s no stamp duty surely people flipping houses becomes a lot easier and would drive prices up 

correct.

[mrtickle]

13 hours ago, Freki said:

It also increases cash requirement at the point of transaction. 

So yeah sdlt down, lvt up. 

About the 100k,

cost of moving is CGT on current property + sdlt on new property + moving costs + fees for selling your current property + buying costs 

So yeah it adds up 

No. This is about poor little old people with a SINGLE property. There is NO "CGT on current property" to be paid.

The cost of downsizing is nothing near 100k.

 

[Mrs Bear]

20 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The reality is stamp duty is stopping people downsizing.

Where I live there a lots of 5/6 bedroom properties lived in by pensioner couples in their late 60s/70s/80s, almost  no one thinks of downsizing as they would rather invest the +£100k cost of moving into staying in their family house.

Stamp duty is a terrible tax that reduces mobility, it should be replaced by an increased council tax. 

I wouldn't mind betting it's at least the idea of all the faff/hassle/stress of it, as much as the cost.  Particularly with the older, less fit and mobile elderly,  esp. if they have nobody to help them.  

Moving always entails a lot of stress and hassle even if you are young and fit. 

We have neighbours in their 80s in a good sized family house who are certainly not fit, and TBH the only moves I can see either of them making now are to a care home or the crematorium.  Even if they  did their children would have to handle every aspect of it for them, and neither of them lives at all nearby. 

[Confusion of VIs]

13 hours ago, hurlerontheditch said:

If there’s no stamp duty surely people flipping houses becomes a lot easier and would drive prices up 

Why? 

If property is easier to buy/sell surely the market will be more fluid and more likely to settle at its true value.

That could be up but overall more likely to be down for the buyer, as there would be more properties to choose from.  

[Confusion of VIs]

18 minutes ago, Mrs Bear said:

I wouldn't mind betting it's at least the idea of all the faff/hassle/stress of it, as much as the cost.  Particularly with the older, less fit and mobile elderly,  esp. if they have nobody to help them.  

Moving always entails a lot of stress and hassle even if you are young and fit. 

We have neighbours in their 80s in a good sized family house who are certainly not fit, and TBH the only moves I can see either of them making now are to a care home or the crematorium.  Even if they  did their children would have to handle every aspect of it for them, and neither of them lives at all nearby. 

I agree for most people it will be a mixture of reasons but cost definitely plays a part, our neighbors recently spend heavily updating their house to make it suitable to stay in as their forever house, new electrics, plumbing, insulation and a lift (proper not stairlift). This was probably at least as much hassle as moving but they said it cost no more than moving (I guess about £150k, of which around £120k would be stamp duty).

[hurlerontheditch]

15 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Why? 

If property is easier to buy/sell surely the market will be more fluid and more likely to settle at its true value.

That could be up but overall more likely to be down for the buyer, as there would be more properties to choose from.  

If you’re already in the game then you have cash to do so but ftb would be further down the food chain again

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, mrtickle said:

No. This is about poor little old people with a SINGLE property. There is NO "CGT on current property" to be paid.

The cost of downsizing is nothing near 100k.

 

This is about well off old people staying in their large family houses in part because of the cost of moving. In much of London the SDLT alone will be more than £100k.