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Curbs on FOBTs makes 38% of William Hill shops unprofitable

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On 12/09/2019 at 17:36, longgone said:

Real money washers have far better ways. Regarding the machines though seeing as every high street has 4-5.laundering 10k a day seems small change. They are no pablo escobar 😆

When their rationalisation is complete Hills will have one betting shop in the whole of Brighton, I believe they have 4 currently. Your estimate of 4 - 5 overall  in every high street is soon likely to become optimistic outside of the biggest cities.

The other big firms must be certain to go down the same route sooner or later.

To the posters on here who are dancing on the graves of the high street shops, a lot of that turnover will go on line and I doubt too much of it would disappear altogether. One could argue that a unit occupied by a bookies helps keep town centres alive whatever criticisms or dislike anyone may have of gambling.

 

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On 09/09/2019 at 20:53, scb said:

As mentioned previously, it’s not a good look that they’ll keep taking these guys money over and over but if you start to take money off them they pretty much ban you.

I have a rule I only bet on what I know. I’ve never put my own money on a horse or a dog for example. I know my sport inside out (fairly niche sport) and have had some big wins and lots of regular smaller wins with Ladbrokes and bet365 (plus others) and they have all limited me to bets that will only allow a £20 profit. William Hill stopped taking bets on the sport years ago when they realise that those of us following the sport could make a killing when certain things happened (competitors missed planes, got ill, basically withdrew at the last minute) and so we’d pile on a back the opposing team. There was an event a few years back where loads of us won a fortune thanks to this and Will Hill limited us and then weeks later stopped taking bets on the sport.

It’s all so one sided. Once you have an advantage over them they run a mile.

The only positive is that it’s nice to know that I’ve actually beat the bookies. And I can actually still go into a ladbrokes shop and place bets but that’s just damn inconvenient most of the time.

I watched a documentary where a professional gambler bought accounts off students. The accounts are always banned, eventually.

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Ban on using credit cards to gamble will be introduced in April.

Will that really help though ? You can still withdraw cash with it or load it to a debit style card.

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1 hour ago, longgone said:

Ban on using credit cards to gamble will be introduced in April.

Will that really help though ? You can still withdraw cash with it or load it to a debit style card.

Yes, it will help those with a problem of gambling with money they don't have....it will not help the betting industry, they don't care if the debt never gets repaid, saved, earned or borrowed money all the same to them........withdrawing cash on a credit card costs a fortune, anyone making regular cash withdrawals using short-term credit on a credit card will quickly flag up that there is a problem or cash-flow issue.....cash on a credit card is a last resort, when there is no other cheaper way to pay......gambling is not something anyone needs to do, they choose to do it......;)

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4 hours ago, winkie said:

Yes, it will help those with a problem of gambling with money they don't have....it will not help the betting industry, they don't care if the debt never gets repaid, saved, earned or borrowed money all the same to them........withdrawing cash on a credit card costs a fortune, anyone making regular cash withdrawals using short-term credit on a credit card will quickly flag up that there is a problem or cash-flow issue.....cash on a credit card is a last resort, when there is no other cheaper way to pay......gambling is not something anyone needs to do, they choose to do it......;)

In the same way people choose to have cancer ? Extreme addictions are a disease every bit as debilitating as a physical disease.

As a society we are becoming much more aware of mental health and conditions we can’t see - to be honest Winkie your normally one of the more enlightened ones on here not like you that comment

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5 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

In the same way people choose to have cancer ? Extreme addictions are a disease every bit as debilitating as a physical disease.

As a society we are becoming much more aware of mental health and conditions we can’t see - to be honest Winkie your normally one of the more enlightened ones on here not like you that comment

Nobody chooses to have cancer.......the problem with doing something today, often we either don't think or even care of tomorrows consequences....we are invincible, will win, will not happen to me.;)

 

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2 hours ago, winkie said:

Nobody chooses to have cancer.......the problem with doing something today, often we either don't think or even care of tomorrows consequences....we are invincible, will win, will not happen to me.;)

 

Many people don't choose to be an addict some do (again like some people have unhealthy lifestyles which ups their risk of terminal illness)

Extreme addiction be it over eating, alcohol, drugs or gambling is not just a lack of will power like yours or mine its a form of mental illness and more could  be done to treat it, discuss it and  understand it.

Edited by GregBowman

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8 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Many people don't choose to be an addict some do (again like some people have unhealthy lifestyles which ups their risk of terminal illness)

Extreme addiction be it over eating, alcohol, drugs or gambling is not just a lack of will power like yours (aren't you lucky...) its a form of mental illness and more could  be done to treat it, discuss it and  understand it 

Of course excess of anything that does harm, knowing of the harm it will do, is doing, but continue to do it, is a mental illness......little to do with will power or lack of will power.... a cry for help, a past trauma...help is out there but expensive and not easy to find.....of course more should be done to treat it, discuss it and understand it, but far to many are making money from it, and it takes more than a simple pill to fix, takes time, investment and resources, so recovery is expensive ....Where do you draw the line?.... when it starts to affect your life and others negatively in a progressive unhealthy way......the mental health of society that includes anxiety and depression is getting worse.....the cost in so many ways to the nation is huge and growing.😉

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9 hours ago, winkie said:

Yes, it will help those with a problem of gambling with money they don't have....it will not help the betting industry, they don't care if the debt never gets repaid, saved, earned or borrowed money all the same to them........withdrawing cash on a credit card costs a fortune, anyone making regular cash withdrawals using short-term credit on a credit card will quickly flag up that there is a problem or cash-flow issue.....cash on a credit card is a last resort, when there is no other cheaper way to pay......gambling is not something anyone needs to do, they choose to do it......;)

surely hardcore gamblers unsuccessful ones that is will have a terrible credit rating anyway so surely they already have self imposed limits on their addiction ? banning CC cards is welcome though as it does limit impulsive actions somewhat at the spur of the moment.  

Gambling is something that is sold as Fun by the peddlers to some individuals that`s all it is but to others it is a starting pistol to a lifetime of addiction problems gambling is particularly nasty as it can remove a lifetime of work and security in a very short space of time especially when dependents are involved and ruins relationships and marriages and basically destroys everything around that person if no self control is gained the addicted person see`s nothing at all wrong and is transported to a different world when they are gaming that`s all they care about but arn`t all addiction problems that ?

i said once before on here a family friend from years back started out as a multimillionaire multiple businesses property etc reduced to begging on the floor of the casino to his wife for the last £50 left and end`s up in a council flat on benefits. 

at least with drug and alcohol addiction it`s a slow burner and usually only destroys the individual in the end. obviously there is a fall out from that if they are the bread winner. 

what starts out as a choice stops being anything but that. But then our fabulous government  are ok with a bit of cannon fodder with public purse being filled with tax money a necessary evil they may say. 

 

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On 08/09/2019 at 14:30, winkie said:

FOBT can very easily capitalise from the vulnerable and addicted......big money is made from people that need certain substances and experiences to 'kill the pain'.....to make life worth living.....exploitation of those that can easily be exploited......consumers that can't help themselves.....not a nice business to be in. ;)

They should all just buy 1 whole bitcoin for £6kish and check the price daily. They will all the ups and downs over a week , month , year they do with FOBT, but long term do ok! Can see it now, Yippie I’m up £2k in a week, next month, oh now I’m down £1k now. Regular 6-10% daily price swings will keep them equally entertained and depressed. 

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2 hours ago, markyh said:

They should all just buy 1 whole bitcoin for £6kish and check the price daily. They will all the ups and downs over a week , month , year they do with FOBT, but long term do ok! Can see it now, Yippie I’m up £2k in a week, next month, oh now I’m down £1k now. Regular 6-10% daily price swings will keep them equally entertained and depressed. 

There are those that get a high from gambling, thinking they have a skill to win, luckier than the rest.....when the real winners are the ones selling the service/entertainment, else they would all be playing on their own machines making a fortune for themselves.....no they are making a fortune from those thinking they can beat the machine or bookies......not everyone is into gambling and speculation, that is why they have no interest in buying crypto or gold..... obviously there is an interest in it as there are two old pinned threads on it.😉

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8 hours ago, longgone said:

surely hardcore gamblers unsuccessful ones that is will have a terrible credit rating anyway so surely they already have self imposed limits on their addiction ? banning CC cards is welcome though as it does limit impulsive actions somewhat at the spur of the moment.  

Gambling is something that is sold as Fun by the peddlers to some individuals that`s all it is but to others it is a starting pistol to a lifetime of addiction problems gambling is particularly nasty as it can remove a lifetime of work and security in a very short space of time especially when dependents are involved and ruins relationships and marriages and basically destroys everything around that person if no self control is gained the addicted person see`s nothing at all wrong and is transported to a different world when they are gaming that`s all they care about but arn`t all addiction problems that ?

i said once before on here a family friend from years back started out as a multimillionaire multiple businesses property etc reduced to begging on the floor of the casino to his wife for the last £50 left and end`s up in a council flat on benefits. 

at least with drug and alcohol addiction it`s a slow burner and usually only destroys the individual in the end. obviously there is a fall out from that if they are the bread winner. 

what starts out as a choice stops being anything but that. But then our fabulous government  are ok with a bit of cannon fodder with public purse being filled with tax money a necessary evil they may say. 

 

Agree with your sentiments......any out of control addiction is a sickness, it costs society and the economy millions (private gains, public losses, heard that one before)....people will require help and support to overcome it, mental health is a big growing problem and the government will have to not only try to prevent it but invest time and money getting people back to having healthy minds as well as bodies, they are linked......😉

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12 hours ago, GregBowman said:

Many people don't choose to be an addict some do (again like some people have unhealthy lifestyles which ups their risk of terminal illness)

Extreme addiction be it over eating, alcohol, drugs or gambling is not just a lack of will power like yours or mine its a form of mental illness and more could  be done to treat it, discuss it and  understand it.

Very true.

I think we should try to protect people although banning gambling is not the solution - making it harder could help.

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11 hours ago, winkie said:

Of course excess of anything that does harm, knowing of the harm it will do, is doing, but continue to do it, is a mental illness......little to do with will power or lack of will power.... a cry for help, a past trauma...help is out there but expensive and not easy to find.....of course more should be done to treat it, discuss it and understand it, but far to many are making money from it, and it takes more than a simple pill to fix, takes time, investment and resources, so recovery is expensive ....Where do you draw the line?.... when it starts to affect your life and others negatively in a progressive unhealthy way......the mental health of society that includes anxiety and depression is getting worse.....the cost in so many ways to the nation is huge and growing.😉

Well put - I agree totally with your sentiment in the middle about far too many people are making money from it - things evolve and we have to regulate where required - without rabid free marketeers ranting about freedom

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13 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Very true.

I think we should try to protect people although banning gambling is not the solution - making it harder could help.

I am not advocating banning it but as yous say protect people by regulating it more - I like fast cars and motorcycles and my addiction is probably speed - speed limits stop me within reason doing anything stupid and harming others 

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9 hours ago, longgone said:

surely hardcore gamblers unsuccessful ones that is will have a terrible credit rating anyway so surely they already have self imposed limits on their addiction ? banning CC cards is welcome though as it does limit impulsive actions somewhat at the spur of the moment.  

Gambling is something that is sold as Fun by the peddlers to some individuals that`s all it is but to others it is a starting pistol to a lifetime of addiction problems gambling is particularly nasty as it can remove a lifetime of work and security in a very short space of time especially when dependents are involved and ruins relationships and marriages and basically destroys everything around that person if no self control is gained the addicted person see`s nothing at all wrong and is transported to a different world when they are gaming that`s all they care about but arn`t all addiction problems that ?

i said once before on here a family friend from years back started out as a multimillionaire multiple businesses property etc reduced to begging on the floor of the casino to his wife for the last £50 left and end`s up in a council flat on benefits. 

at least with drug and alcohol addiction it`s a slow burner and usually only destroys the individual in the end. obviously there is a fall out from that if they are the bread winner. 

what starts out as a choice stops being anything but that. But then our fabulous government  are ok with a bit of cannon fodder with public purse being filled with tax money a necessary evil they may say. 

 

Of the addictions and I might have mentioned it before my son is/was (never sure of the term) an alcoholic and Coke user  - clean for 6 years successful man so all good

He tells me in the rooms they often debate how hard it is to recover from  over eating or gambling because in both instances you have to touch the substance you abuse daily, food and money and consider themselves fortunate they can totally abstain.

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Acknowledging there is a problem is the first step to recovery, many never do......I think we also assume that it is the poor, working class and uneducated that tend to have bigger addiction problems.....it is anything but, some of the most successful looking people have big addiction problems, perhaps they are better at hiding it and keep it supported for longer.....can ruin all lives and affect everyone from the very top, to the very bottom.😉

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50 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Of the addictions and I might have mentioned it before my son is/was (never sure of the term) an alcoholic and Coke user  - clean for 6 years successful man so all good

He tells me in the rooms they often debate how hard it is to recover from  over eating or gambling because in both instances you have to touch the substance you abuse daily, food and money and consider themselves fortunate they can totally abstain.

I think to overcome these addictions you have to examine why you do them in the first place and accept the underlying reasons generally These vices are used to counteract Some other failing.

Eating is a lack of education but it is hard for some as like you said you do need to come in contact with it at all times.

I guess it's the circles you mix in too with the drink and drugs, I used to drink a lot growing up but was never a problem drinker trouble with being on the booze few times a week is you feel starving after it and tend to go for high calorific foods. I drink far less now if at all apart from the Christmas period which I find difficult as drinking is so ingrained In society.

I have no problem abstaining from it though when I need to.

Coke is a terrible habit i had it 3 or 4 times and you initially start out with a high but goes the complete Opposite way on the come down. I found it 50x worse than another other depressive episode horrible stuff.

I hope your son never did long term damage to his heart with the coke as that is the usual outcome.

My brother is a gambling addict 30 years plus he has no desire to stop I just cut him out unfortunately Some dont want to change.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, GregBowman said:

As a society we are becoming much more aware of mental health and conditions we can’t see - to be honest Winkie your normally one of the more enlightened ones on here not like you that comment

We're also more and more rejecting the idea of self-responsibility. Unfortunately it sounds like a typical lurch from one extreme to the other.

I've no time at all for "we must protect people from themselves!" Help them when they do screw things up for themselves, yes, but the default for society as a whole must always be that people are responsible adults (or directly in the care of someone who is).

Edited by Riedquat

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1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

We're also more and more rejecting the idea of self-responsibility. Unfortunately it sounds like a typical lurch from one extreme to the other.

True - but surely if we take the view that self responsibility is all important, then lets legalize all drugs?

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3 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

True - but surely if we take the view that self responsibility is all important, then lets legalize all drugs?

In an ideal world, yes.

We don't live in an ideal world though, so sometimes restrictions are justifiable; I'm certainly not one of those brainless idiots who thinks you can have a simple rule, apply it to everyone, and then try to call out anyone who makes exceptions to it, because the world isn't a simple enough place to do that. You can have general principles but ultimately need to judge any situation on its own merits.

So my position is that you let people do whatever they want, and expect them to deal with the consequences of it, unless there are sufficiently persuasive arguments to the contrary. If all they're affecting is themselves I find it hard to find persuasive arguments (and regard "but what about their friends and family?" as emotional blackmail, rather than an argument). When other people start getting affected - drugs and crime seem to go together after all, then there's still a point where I'd rather put up with the risks to myself from these other people than have everyone treated like babies who need looking after, ideally any measures to deal with the problem should be very specifically targetted at those causing the problem, but there does sometimes come a point at which more general measures are a necessary evil.

So back to gambling, that's one for individuals (and I used to waste rather too much money in fruit machines, although hardly to the level we're talking about with some people). A good society though helps people who want to stop stop, rather than puts up barriers in the first place. And how can you even help someone stop without them accepting responsibility as part of that process?

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21 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

We're also more and more rejecting the idea of self-responsibility. Unfortunately it sounds like a typical lurch from one extreme to the other.

I've no time at all for "we must protect people from themselves!" Help them when they do screw things up for themselves, yes, but the default for society as a whole must always be that people are responsible adults (or directly in the care of someone who is).

I am as binary as you can come as one of Mrs T's original B**** children when it comes to the free market...

AA was founded in the thirties and the temperance movement before that and Hogarth painted his picture of Gin Lane 200 years before that. Addictive behaviour is not new. 

The messages that people are hit with are vast in volume today and targeted it's the evil side of technology - light regulation just provides balance 

We have always protected people from themselves - Your lucky very lucky you feel able to resist (you haven't but just haven't slid into anything too damaging we are all influenced )

 

 

 

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