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Curbs on FOBTs makes 38% of William Hill shops unprofitable


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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/03/william-hill-could-close-up-to-900-betting-shops-after-fobt-clampdown

 

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William Hill blamed the government’s clampdown on fixed-odds betting terminals (FOBTs) as it warned that up to 900 betting shops could close, putting 4,500 jobs at risk.

 

Love the language.

This is where idiots in the media do not get how economics fits into the real world. It is absolutely no problem to society whatsoever if these stores close. In fact it is a net positive. The people destroying their lives playing these machines will still have the money to go and spend it somewhere else, so the economy will be fine. If fact, actual productive businesses that are viable even without exploiting mental illness will end up doing better.

And currently, those 4500 people working in these soon to be loss-making shops are there purely to facilitate the process of parting the mentally ill from their money. These 4500 people will be freed up to do something useful. Better for them, better for society.

Cant make money from football betting? Horse racing? Need £100 per spin fruit machines that only vunerable people will use? No, youre not a viable business.

And really, who couldnt see this coming? High street retail? LOL. Go to the high street to put on a bet? Why the f would anyone do that?

Edited by AdamoMucci
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2 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/03/william-hill-could-close-up-to-900-betting-shops-after-fobt-clampdown

 

 

Love the language.

This is where idiots in the media do not get how economics fits into the real world. It is absolutely no problem to society whatsoever if these stores close. In fact it is a net positive. The people destroying their lives playing these machines will still have the money to go and spend it somewhere else, so the economy will be fine. If fact, actual productive businesses that are viable even without exploiting mental illness will end up doing better.

And currently, those 4500 people working in these soon to be loss-making shops are there purely to facilitate the process of parting the mentally ill from their money. These 4500 people will be freed up to do something useful. Better for them, better for society.

Cant make money from football betting? Horse racing? Need £100 per spin fruit machines that only vunerable people will use? No, youre not a viable business.

And really, who couldnt see this coming? High street retail? LOL. Go to the high street to put on a bet? Why the f would anyone do that?

lets hope all the other bookmakers follow suit.  

you are correct though mental illness is the driver for the profits.  i have watched someone put over a grand in these machines in less than 20 mins. 

 

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8 minutes ago, longgone said:

lets hope all the other bookmakers follow suit.  

you are correct though mental illness is the driver for the profits.  i have watched someone put over a grand in these machines in less than 20 mins. 

 

 

And I guarantee you that person could not really afford it and is suffering psychological problems. People who can afford/like to gamble thousands in a few minutes do not go to those grotty little places to play those things.

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23 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/03/william-hill-could-close-up-to-900-betting-shops-after-fobt-clampdown

 

 

Love the language.

This is where idiots in the media do not get how economics fits into the real world. It is absolutely no problem to society whatsoever if these stores close. In fact it is a net positive. The people destroying their lives playing these machines will still have the money to go and spend it somewhere else, so the economy will be fine. If fact, actual productive businesses that are viable even without exploiting mental illness will end up doing better.

And currently, those 4500 people working in these soon to be loss-making shops are there purely to facilitate the process of parting the mentally ill from their money. These 4500 people will be freed up to do something useful. Better for them, better for society.

Cant make money from football betting? Horse racing? Need £100 per spin fruit machines that only vunerable people will use? No, youre not a viable business.

And really, who couldnt see this coming? High street retail? LOL. Go to the high street to put on a bet? Why the f would anyone do that?

There is a reason for using the high street bookies for sports betting - anonymity, even if that doesn't last long.

If you are even slightly successful with an internet bookie you are likely to have bets restricted very quickly because their margins are so thin. E.G. I was offered 0.88p each way on a horse and £2 on a Scots cup footie bet from an internet bookie I was doing well out of at the time.

In the end I closed the account, it was pointless but then I noticed they were quite a bit softer to win from than the others, it can and does vary.

High street shops do of course manage risk but it is definitely easier to get on and for a larger amount.

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1 minute ago, Bluestone59 said:

There is a reason for using the high street bookies for sports betting - anonymity, even if that doesn't last long.

If you are even slightly successful with an internet bookie you are likely to have bets restricted very quickly because their margins are so thin. E.G. I was offered 0.88p each way on a horse and £2 on a Scots cup footie bet from an internet bookie I was doing well out of at the time.

In the end I closed the account, it was pointless but then I noticed they were quite a bit softer to win from than the others, it can and does vary.

High street shops do of course manage risk but it is definitely easier to get on and for a larger amount.

 

Sounds like a fair point. Would you still have this problem at betfair or are the prices just not good enough?

Anyway, its a minor. Most people are not as selective with their bet that they will ever face your problem. Why would they go to the high street?

We have been saying here for a while how high streets are just banks, bookies, charity shops etc.. Well, the banks are disappearing, the bookies are disappearing.... what changing times! What is going to be left? Food and charity. And food charity.

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30 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

Cant make money from football betting? Horse racing? Need £100 per spin fruit machines that only vunerable people will use? No, youre not a viable business.

FOBT machines facilitate money laundering. They aren't just for gambling addicts.

 

30 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

And really, who couldnt see this coming? High street retail? LOL. Go to the high street to put on a bet? Why the f would anyone do that?

I reckon in less affluent areas there are a significant minority of people without smartphones or computers who want to gamble, so they have to go to a shop to place a bet. This is probably falling all the time though.

 

42 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

And currently, those 4500 people working in these soon to be loss-making shops are there purely to facilitate the process of parting the mentally ill from their money. These 4500 people will be freed up to do something useful. Better for them, better for society.

Also, did the bookies feel bad when they entered online gambling?! Surely this also paves the way for fewer staff required on the high street.

 

 

The government could reasonably do more to kill it faster though. We ought to be asking: Is it enough to make 38% of shops unprofitable? Can't they come up with a policy that hits them harder?

 

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5 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

We have been saying here for a while how high streets are just banks, bookies, charity shops etc.. Well, the banks are disappearing, the bookies are disappearing.... what changing times! What is going to be left? Food and charity. And food charity.

Coffee shops and hairdressers.

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2 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

 

Sounds like a fair point. Would you still have this problem at betfair or are the prices just not good enough?

Anyway, its a minor. Most people are not as selective with their bet that they will ever face your problem. Why would they go to the high street?

We have been saying here for a while how high streets are just banks, bookies, charity shops etc.. Well, the banks are disappearing, the bookies are disappearing.... what changing times! What is going to be left? Food and charity. And food charity.

I detest Betfair, I though the computer age made it inevitable really.  They made it far easier to back and lay which meant people so doing could make a fortune, paid for by the average £5 punter. The prices never seemed to me as good as made out to be, especially after commissions.

And of course who are among Betfair's biggest customers?  The big, and not so big bookies themselves.

You are correct this is not the central issue.

I've twice seen someone doing big money. One guy had a card declined after £8k on the machines, the other was on the mobile to his mate "it's not working. I've spent £4k out of 5 so far".

I wasn't supposed to know about the £8k one, guy I knew in working in shop shouldn't have told me.

Completely agree these machines must die. I hear Hills are not that worried and that if you have no morality the shares could be a good though risky punt. Employee recommended them to me a few months ago and they put on more than 15% but you would have had to get out before this crackdown.

No, I didn't buy any.

 

 

 

 

 

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As a £2 to £10 bet person, enjoy a flutter on the big flat-racing events.   Really enjoyed the Goodwood meeting last week, and ITV were really good with their coverage of the event.  Francesca Cumani really has style and knowledge.  I think one race was a Group 1 (with £300,000+ prize pot to the winning horse owners), she did a review on each horse on way to the stalls, putting her strong confidence in one selection that had drifted out from joint-favourite 7/2 in the morning, to romp home at 10/1, although I didn't back it.

Those FOBT are not good.  Lights and graphics.  I can see how some people get deep into 'immediate' buzz, and gamblers fallacy, feeding in money and getting in too deep.

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21 hours ago, AdamoMucci said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/03/william-hill-could-close-up-to-900-betting-shops-after-fobt-clampdown

 

 

Love the language.

This is where idiots in the media do not get how economics fits into the real world. It is absolutely no problem to society whatsoever if these stores close. In fact it is a net positive. The people destroying their lives playing these machines will still have the money to go and spend it somewhere else, so the economy will be fine. If fact, actual productive businesses that are viable even without exploiting mental illness will end up doing better.

And currently, those 4500 people working in these soon to be loss-making shops are there purely to facilitate the process of parting the mentally ill from their money. These 4500 people will be freed up to do something useful. Better for them, better for society.

Cant make money from football betting? Horse racing? Need £100 per spin fruit machines that only vunerable people will use? No, youre not a viable business.

And really, who couldnt see this coming? High street retail? LOL. Go to the high street to put on a bet? Why the f would anyone do that?

Good post. 

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On 09/08/2018 at 12:53, AdamoMucci said:

 

Sounds like a fair point. Would you still have this problem at betfair or are the prices just not good enough?

 

If you go to betfair by default it now takes you to their sportsbook not exchange.

The original exchange model has failed. The prices you see on the exchange are NOT what you get. Commission is still between 2% and 5% but once they class you as a regular winner, you then have to pay Premium Charge. This is either 20%, 40% or 60%. They deduct Premium Charge on a Wednesday and it's based on what you won the previous week ending Sunday.

In some cases it seems to me they are like a gangster taking protection money. For example there are people betting at live events, like racecourses picking the pockets of punters watching slower TV pictures at home. As long as Betfair get a large enough share of the loot, it's obviously OK.

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On 09/08/2018 at 13:09, Bluestone59 said:

I detest Betfair, I though the computer age made it inevitable really.  They made it far easier to back and lay which meant people so doing could make a fortune, paid for by the average £5 punter. The prices never seemed to me as good as made out to be, especially after commissions.

And of course who are among Betfair's biggest customers?  The big, and not so big bookies themselves.

BBC News: William Hill boss leaves as 700 bookies close

Quote

William Hill has announced its chief executive is leaving as it shifts its focus to online and international markets.

The departure of Philip Bowcock comes after it said 700 betting shops would close because of the reduction of the maximum stake on fixed-odds betting terminals (FOBTs) to £2.

Mr Bowcock said it had been an "intense period" within the industry.

He said the business, which he had run for four years, had experienced "significant structural and regulatory change".

"After all the work the team has done, I believe the business is now well placed to take advantage of the opportunities presented in the US market, as well as continued growth in digital," said Mr Bowcock, who had originally joined as finance director in November 2015.

William Hill's best bet (pun intended) is probably for it to be bought by a US bookmaker for its sportsbooks.  Otherwise Flutter (Betfair and other brands) will probably crush it.

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59 minutes ago, Will! said:

BBC News: William Hill boss leaves as 700 bookies close

William Hill's best bet (pun intended) is probably for it to be bought by a US bookmaker for its sportsbooks.  Otherwise Flutter (Betfair and other brands) will probably crush it.

Seems you have received the same info I have. Last year (?) I was advised by a source that Hills were a "buy". They put on over 15% reaching a price of around low 300p 

Then came the announcement that the gaming machines would be subject to a £2 maximum stake and they went all the way back down to 142. So you might have had to have been quick on your feet to get out profitably.

A couple of months ago the same source said they are again a buy at 142, now 178, so + 25%. The reason, their incursions into the US make them a take over target from US gaming firms whose markets have recently been liberalised.

Hills have always struck me as the most professional of the high street firms and Betfair have now had 17 years to put them out of business.  Even if that does happen I don't see Betfair being the cause. Changing culture, legislation or the long rumoured takeover would be more likely causes of their eventual disappearance.

 

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On 09/08/2018 at 12:14, AdamoMucci said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/03/william-hill-could-close-up-to-900-betting-shops-after-fobt-clampdown

 

 

Love the language.

This is where idiots in the media do not get how economics fits into the real world. It is absolutely no problem to society whatsoever if these stores close. In fact it is a net positive. The people destroying their lives playing these machines will still have the money to go and spend it somewhere else, so the economy will be fine. If fact, actual productive businesses that are viable even without exploiting mental illness will end up doing better.

And currently, those 4500 people working in these soon to be loss-making shops are there purely to facilitate the process of parting the mentally ill from their money. These 4500 people will be freed up to do something useful. Better for them, better for society.

Cant make money from football betting? Horse racing? Need £100 per spin fruit machines that only vunerable people will use? No, youre not a viable business.

And really, who couldnt see this coming? High street retail? LOL. Go to the high street to put on a bet? Why the f would anyone do that?

Yes, 100%. They should also now be subjected to a PPI style witch hunt. 

They add no value. 

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Potentially ladbrokes are in a better position than William Hill. Not only do they have a similar shop footprint, but they also own their own exchange, though Betdaq hasn't the market presence of Betfair.

My local bookies is like a coffee shop or a pub. Always 6-10 people in there who seem to know each other. Not particularly doing anything, just hanging about. If you spend money you typically get a free tea, a biscuit and maybe one of those little plastic pens. 

Ladbrokes sent me a free tenner to use on a fobt machine. Spend ten quid of your own money, if you lose the tenner then get the tenner back to you in cash. I couldn't believe how difficult it was to get the ten quid on the fobt machine. I've no idea how people got £4-8k on the machine in a few minutes. I had to deposit £10 from my bank card at the till, then link it to my online account, then choose a machine in the shop to have the ten quid loaded to, then they had to lock the machine till I got seated at it in case someone else spent my money, as the ten quid was just sitting live on the screen as soon as it was allocated to the fobt terminal I had chosen by the teller. 5 minutes to get a tenner in the machine, 2 seconds to lose it.

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5 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Yes, 100%. They should also now be subjected to a PPI style witch hunt. 

They add no value. 

 

Totally agree 

Of all the vices/addictions smoking. Drinking and gambling when you have the topic on a talk radio show the gambling stories are heartbreaking 

So when they are they going to something about that c*** Winstone and his mates pushing this filth to people including youngsters at all hours on tv and during sports matches ?

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On 09/08/2018 at 12:26, AdamoMucci said:

 

And I guarantee you that person could not really afford it and is suffering psychological problems. People who can afford/like to gamble thousands in a few minutes do not go to those grotty little places to play those things.

A colleague of mine gambled his entire paycheck on payday and lost his job in a bookies on a machine. He definitely couldn't afford to either.

Bookmakers make their money out of a hardcore of addicts who can't afford to gamble. 

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9 hours ago, GregBowman said:

 

Totally agree 

Of all the vices/addictions smoking. Drinking and gambling when you have the topic on a talk radio show the gambling stories are heartbreaking 

So when they are they going to something about that c*** Winstone and his mates pushing this filth to people including youngsters at all hours on tv and during sports matches ?

I agree... there should be a complete ban on all such advertising. 

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