What a load of rubbish

[bushblairandbrown]

9 hours ago, Locke said:

"Government intervention has failed, and in fact made the problem worse, so what we need, you see, is far far more government intervention."

Have you suffered some sort of trauma from the plastic bag surcharge? We were warned of the potential chaos from charging 5p for a carrier bag. Of course that was preposterous. 

Perhaps you don't like the legislation to ban plastic microbeads. Or maybe the idea to make more plastic recyclable by limiting the types of plastic that can be used for packaging. I don't know. It's just not clear why you put that quotation without any context. 

[Habeas Domus]

On 05/08/2018 at 10:11, stormymonday_2011 said:

Strange how the end consumer rather than the producer is deemed to be the problem here.

I dont remember shoppers demonstrating on the streets demanding that items that previously came in glass containers, paper bags, cardboard and grease proof paper be wrapped in layers of plastic often more impenetrable than tank armour.

The complication is that back in the good old days, the hidden cost of not having plastic packaging was far higher levels food waste. Much of it would be unseen because the spoiled food would never reach the shelves.

Food waste does have an enviromental cost too - lower production, the land and water used and energy for transporting spoiled food etc.

I would like to see a return to Cellophane packaging, its not perfect but being plant based is a lot better than oil based plastics

https://www.greenandgrowing.org/cellophane-wrap-eco-friendly/

[Wayward]

Not very long ago the vast majority of people didn't give much thought to plastics as an environmental problem...at best they put the recyclable plastic in the right bin and that was that.

Suddenly it is being discussed a great deal and largely on account of plastics in the ocean and David Attenborough's intervention which has very little or nothing to do with plastics used in UK homes and more to do with plastic used in less developed countries.

This makes me wonder what issue will next come to the fore...humans are doing many things today that in future will be condemned...that is the way it always is.  In the past most people accepted slavery and industrial whaling etc.  Not really acceptable today.  It is interesting to think what will be next to become unacceptable by consensus...eg...

-Use of plastics...?

-Animal welfare standards or even eating meat at all...?

-Driving around in cars with combustion engines...?

-Flying away for weekend breaks?

-Leaving crushing debts for future generations...?

-Pursuing policies to inflate the cost of housing to enrich favoured groups...?

-Deliberately frustrating housing provision and maintaining scarcity...?

 

[malk]

3 hours ago, Wayward said:

Not very long ago the vast majority of people didn't give much thought to plastics as an environmental problem...at best they put the recyclable plastic in the right bin and that was that.

Suddenly it is being discussed a great deal and largely on account of plastics in the ocean and David Attenborough's intervention which has very little or nothing to do with plastics used in UK homes and more to do with plastic used in less developed countries.

This makes me wonder what issue will next come to the fore...humans are doing many things today that in future will be condemned...that is the way it always is.  In the past most people accepted slavery and industrial whaling etc.  Not really acceptable today.  It is interesting to think what will be next to become unacceptable by consensus...eg...

-Use of plastics...?

-Animal welfare standards or even eating meat at all...?

-Driving around in cars with combustion engines...?

-Flying away for weekend breaks?

-Leaving crushing debts for future generations...?

-Pursuing policies to inflate the cost of housing to enrich favoured groups...?

-Deliberately frustrating housing provision and maintaining scarcity...?

 

Leaving debts to future generations is a myth and flying will get a technological solution but for the others, the sooner we accept that they're unacceptable the better!

[Wayward]

3 hours ago, malk said:

Leaving debts to future generations is a myth and flying will get a technological solution but for the others, the sooner we accept that they're unacceptable the better!

Leaving debts to future generations is a myth???  Well thank goodness for that. 

[malk]

2 hours ago, Wayward said:

Leaving debts to future generations is a myth???  Well thank goodness for that. 

Thank goodness indeed. The sooner people realise the better!

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, malk said:

Thank goodness indeed. The sooner people realise the better!

 

[DiggerUK]

An interesting piece appeared on WUWT,  yes,  that devils site for denialistas, which gives what I consider are some worthwhile suggestions on what to do with hydrocarbon waste.

Why those who are convinced that the planet is doomed jump up and down at the mention of incineration to power, or even plain old incineration, is beyond me. With todays technology, the air that comes out of the chimney is far less polluted than the air it is released in to.

Keep calm and tidy up..._

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/08/28/letter-those-oceans-of-plastic-look-at-the-sources-first/

 

[Riedquat]

On 07/08/2018 at 13:19, Wayward said:

Not very long ago the vast majority of people didn't give much thought to plastics as an environmental problem...at best they put the recyclable plastic in the right bin and that was that.

Same with all sorts of things. Something may or may not be an issue but even if it is the bandwaggon jumping if it gets spotted usually gets taken to completely ludicrous extremes by people who are unable to comprehend some balance between utter over-use or over-indulgence or whatever the problem is and complete prohibition.

[23rdian]

Very good program on iPlayer from BBC4 at the moment something like the history of rubbish. They actually do an historical dig of rubbish sites and it pretty much shows that very little breaks down once buried. The madness is that at some point they expect these sites to be mined. As it will be easier/worthwhile to extract from rubbish rather than mine from raw materials.

Edited September 1, 2018 by 23rdian

[The Spaniard]

On 07/08/2018 at 13:19, Wayward said:

This makes me wonder what issue will next come to the fore...humans are doing many things today that in future will be condemned...that is the way it always is.  In the past most people accepted slavery and industrial whaling etc.  Not really acceptable today.  It is interesting to think what will be next to become unacceptable by consensus...eg...

.

.

 

Such as borrowing our medium of exchange into existence at interest from a cartel of too-big-to-fail commercial banks, when we could easily supply ourselves with an adequate, publicly issued, permanently circulating, debt-free money supply at almost zero existential cost.

See http://www.positivemoney.org for further details. 

[adarmo]

On 06/08/2018 at 20:45, bushblairandbrown said:

Have you suffered some sort of trauma from the plastic bag surcharge? We were warned of the potential chaos from charging 5p for a carrier bag. Of course that was preposterous. 

Perhaps you don't like the legislation to ban plastic microbeads. Or maybe the idea to make more plastic recyclable by limiting the types of plastic that can be used for packaging. I don't know. It's just not clear why you put that quotation without any context. 

 Imho the proper solution is just to legislate against the use of disposable plastic and state all packaging, clothes, straws etc should be biodegradable. Clothes is a tricky one especially for anyone into sports..... But surely it is not beyond the ability of human kind to fix the problem?

Even if everyone stopped using carrier bags it'll make virtually zero difference other than maybe a little less litter. Remove none permanent plastics altogether and that's a big improvement. 

[adarmo]

On 05/08/2018 at 22:59, BearlyBegun said:

I had a pint outside in Hyde park recently, by the serpentine - served in a plastic pint cup that carried a print saying "I am not a normal plastic cup" or something like that. I googled the company and found out it was made of PLA which is a type of plastic made from organic base.

Looked and felt exactly like any other plastic pint cup I have come across but apparently this cup when exposed to elements (landfill/composted) it breaks down completely in 6-24months.

I really cannot believe that we havent banned normal plastics for at least all the ordinary plastic cups/cutlery/straws etc that are used in the UK. I'm sure many other products could also be made using this PLA or similar organic plastics that break down quickly... I dont know why we havent forced the market over to these other options.

Surely the public opinion would be behind this kind of policy?

 Yes exactly this. I Was a uni mid last decade and we had these in all the campus bars. They were collected and composted on campus. Since then I've been in favour of any law that makes all packaging biodegradable. 

Even if everything is recyclable there are so many oxygen thieving F***witts out there who litter, and some happens accidentally that recycling can't really be a solution. 

[adarmo]

On 05/08/2018 at 22:59, BearlyBegun said:

I had a pint outside in Hyde park recently, by the serpentine - served in a plastic pint cup that carried a print saying "I am not a normal plastic cup" or something like that. I googled the company and found out it was made of PLA which is a type of plastic made from organic base.

Looked and felt exactly like any other plastic pint cup I have come across but apparently this cup when exposed to elements (landfill/composted) it breaks down completely in 6-24months.

I really cannot believe that we havent banned normal plastics for at least all the ordinary plastic cups/cutlery/straws etc that are used in the UK. I'm sure many other products could also be made using this PLA or similar organic plastics that break down quickly... I dont know why we havent forced the market over to these other options.

Surely the public opinion would be behind this kind of policy?

 Yes exactly this. I Was a uni mid last decade and we had these in all the campus bars. They were collected and composted on campus. Since then I've been in favour of any law that makes all packaging biodegradable. 

Even if everything is recyclable there are so many oxygen thieving F***witts out there who litter, and some happens accidentally that recycling can't really be a solution. 

[Wayward]

23 hours ago, 23rdian said:

Very good program on iPlayer from BBC4 at the moment something like the history of rubbish. They actually do an historical dig of rubbish sites and it pretty much shows that very little breaks down once buried. The madness is that at some point they expect these sites to be mined. As it will be easier/worthwhile to extract from rubbish rather than mine from raw materials.

I read they are mining old dumps in the US now...

[Riedquat]

In some ways mining old dumps is just a continuation of what mining has often done. Quite often in the past one of the things a new mine has done if reopening an old one is reprocess the spoil heaps, having got better means of processing (or are after minerals that previously had no value). In some ways mining rubbish dumps is the same.

Better to simply not generate as much rubbish in the first place of course.