Amazon halved corporation tax bill despite UK profits tripling

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Amazon halved corporation tax bill despite UK profits tripling

Amazon halved UK corporation tax bill to £4.5m last year 

 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/02/amazon-halved-uk-corporation-tax-bill-to-45m-last-year?CMP=share_btn_tw

[dougless]

There are quite a few words to describe their behavior but I won't use them here.  I have significantly cut back on my use of Amazon over the last two or three years.  I wonder how Brexit will impact on their dubious cross border tax dodges.

[spyguy]

Its corporation tax. P1ss in ocean for tax take.

Tehyll be paying a lot in payroll taxes and, compared to other retailer, are not geared up to fallback on tax credits to make up the wages.

There corporation taxes are low as they are rolling out lots of warehouse space.

They dont pay much rates are they using low cost warehouses.

 

[spyguy]

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9178

The biggest tax avoiders are working age people on tax credits.

 

[malk]

13 minutes ago, spyguy said:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9178

The biggest tax avoiders are working age people on tax credits.

 

Did you intend to show up the poverty of your argument in a chart?

8% of the total tax take is hardly a p*ss in the ocean, and that's the amount taken once a shed load has been avoided, aggressively or otherwise. Now taxes might not pay for spending but avoiding them allows for distortions in the market that have real negative consequences.

[Sour Mash]

Many of the people Amazon employs in their warehousing operations (directly or through contract agencies) are on very low wages too and may well be claiming tax credits.

Given that they can avoid paying ridiculous high street rents too, it's no wonder conventional retail can't compete.

 

[spyguy]

14 minutes ago, malk said:

Did you intend to show up the poverty of your argument in a chart?

8% of the total tax take is hardly a p*ss in the ocean, and that's the amount taken once a shed load has been avoided, aggressively or otherwise. Now taxes might not pay for spending but avoiding them allows for distortions in the market that have real negative consequences.

8% is 8%.

Wage taxes make up 44%.

[malk]

36 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Its corporation tax. P1ss in ocean for tax take.

 

3 minutes ago, spyguy said:

8% is 8%.

Tell you what, why don't you give up 8% of your income, it's only a p*ss in the ocean after all.

[dougless]

42 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Its corporation tax. P1ss in ocean for tax take.

But that is the point, it shouldn't be such a piffling amount.  Corporation tax needs to be much higher; these companies need to pay a much bigger share of the cost of doing business in the UK.  And please don't tell us that they won't like it and go somewhere else; if they do, so be it.

[jonb2]

55 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Its corporation tax. P1ss in ocean for tax take.

Tehyll be paying a lot in payroll taxes and, compared to other retailer, are not geared up to fallback on tax credits to make up the wages.

There corporation taxes are low as they are rolling out lots of warehouse space.

They dont pay much rates are they using low cost warehouses.

 

/sigh

Set your sights to the top, not the mess on the ground.

There was once a time when work meant something here. It had a purpose. There is not enough real work to go around in the UK - hence tax credits and zero-hour contracts. The rot starts and ends at the top. The only truly profitable drive by government has been the finance sector for 40 fracking years. All alternatives have been run down.

Tax credits are a symptom of the cancer.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-01/too-many-jobs-feel-meaningless-because-they-are

If it was me, every single non-tax payer would be made to pay or shut down here - a license to operate. They do nothing for the good of society anyway.

Edited August 3, 2018 by jonb2

[zugzwang]

12 minutes ago, dougless said:

But that is the point, it shouldn't be such a piffling amount.  Corporation tax needs to be much higher; these companies need to pay a much bigger share of the cost of doing business in the UK.  And please don't tell us that they won't like it and go somewhere else; if they do, so be it.

Quite right. Bezos, Zuckerberg, Thiel, Musk etc. All robber baronial monopoly capitalists. It's the Silicon Valley m.o.

Frankly, anyone still using Amazon services in 2018 needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

[spyguy]

18 minutes ago, dougless said:

But that is the point, it shouldn't be such a piffling amount.  Corporation tax needs to be much higher; these companies need to pay a much bigger share of the cost of doing business in the UK.  And please don't tell us that they won't like it and go somewhere else; if they do, so be it.

Well ....

At the moment, Amazon is being funded by its equity holders who are currently happy with AMZ spending loads with some vague promise of return.

You really cannot tax that.

The fact that Amazon is selling gaziilions in the UK is not the issue. Its selling gazzillions with a profit margin of 0.00001%.

The nature of AMZ business - regional warehouses etc - is down to the pervse incentives of UK tax and real estate costs.

The case of AMZ v. Debenhams is the same old ****** from the 60s when super markets rolled out and destroyed local shops - my grandad had a general shop which was wiped out by when super supermarkets came to town.

If you have a grips with AMZ tax take then it needs to be took up with UKGOV.

The situtation that AMZ find its self is pretty much down to people lobby for taxes o nthis., taxes on that, sub for this, sub for that.

 

 

 

[spyguy]

11 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

/sigh

Set your sights to the top, not the mess on the ground.

There was once a time when work meant something here. It had a purpose. There is not enough real work to go around in the UK - hence tax credits and zero-hour contracts. The rot starts and ends at the top. The only truly profitable drive by government has been the finance sector for 40 fracking years. All alternatives have been run down.

Tax credits are a symptom of the cancer.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-01/too-many-jobs-feel-meaningless-because-they-are

If it was me, every single non-tax payer would be made to pay or shut down here - a license to operate. They do nothing for the good of society anyway.

But they do pay tax!

Theyll pay wage roll taxes, rates on their warehouses.

If the argument is that AMZ should pay more on its warehouse because Debenhams are sh1t?

[jonb2]

13 minutes ago, spyguy said:

But they do pay tax!

Theyll pay wage roll taxes, rates on their warehouses.

If the argument is that AMZ should pay more on its warehouse because Debenhams are sh1t?

They avoid tax. Amazon runs on investment debt as well. This means not only do they have a dreadful name for how they treat their workers - but being financed by a huge 'legitimate' debt fusion reactor makes it very difficult for SMEs to survive.

http://observer.com/2018/04/amazon-britain-harsh-working-conditions/

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4185549-amazon-investment-fails-generation

https://www.thestreet.com/video/14491322/only-wall-street-s-dumbest-think-amazon-will-be-able-to-skirt-regulation-forever.html

Just watch Rollerball for what happens when  the world just ends up with The Corporation and nothing else.

Amazon and the other tech companies are prime examples of how human values are virtually extinct and why we are where we are.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by jonb2

[Social Justice League]

Many people now avoid paying tax, by only working up to  the threshold.

It seems pointless working hard in the UK in 2018.

Work as little as possible and consume as little as possible.

Watch the corrupt system go up in flames.

 

[spyguy]

Just now, Social Justice League said:

Many people now avoid paying tax, by only working up to  the threshold.

It seems pointless working hard in the UK in 2018.

Work as little as possible and consume as little as possible.

Watch the corrupt system go up in flames.

 

Indeed.

Im not defending amazon.

But Im not defending shazza 10 kids either.

The UK - and all countries - needs an equitable tax and benefit system.

Just singling out amazon, when they are responding to fuxxed up tax and real estate and benefit policies is dumb.

The tax system needs fixing. And part of that fix is making it simpler.

 

[jonb2]

Just now, spyguy said:

Indeed.

Im not defending amazon.

But Im not defending shazza 10 kids either.

The UK - and all countries - needs an equitable tax and benefit system.

Just singling out amazon, when they are responding to fuxxed up tax and real estate and benefit policies is dumb.

The tax system needs fixing. And part of that fix is making it simpler.

 

What we need is leaders with vision. An education system based on STEM. Stamping out the corruption and tax haven wankery that we have relied on since Thatcher.

People should have a purpose - once they have - watch everything get better.

[spyguy]

10 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

What we need is leaders with vision. An education system based on STEM. Stamping out the corruption and tax haven wankery that we have relied on since Thatcher.

People should have a purpose - once they have - watch everything get better.

Speaking as a blue collary labour type, the big problems came in 2002 with Brown.

Only thing that needed  osrting out were the banks - big bang /fiannce needed to be isolated from uk tax payers.

 

[Parkwell]

Amazon don't make the laws so I don't see any point complaining at them. They are just smart enough to get me a better price and make a tonne of profit. Looks like common sense in action.

 

[dougless]

1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Well ....

At the moment, Amazon is being funded by its equity holders who are currently happy with AMZ spending loads with some vague promise of return.

You really cannot tax that.

The fact that Amazon is selling gaziilions in the UK is not the issue. Its selling gazzillions with a profit margin of 0.00001%.

The nature of AMZ business - regional warehouses etc - is down to the pervse incentives of UK tax and real estate costs.

The case of AMZ v. Debenhams is the same old ****** from the 60s when super markets rolled out and destroyed local shops - my grandad had a general shop which was wiped out by when super supermarkets came to town.

If you have a grips with AMZ tax take then it needs to be took up with UKGOV.

The situtation that AMZ find its self is pretty much down to people lobby for taxes o nthis., taxes on that, sub for this, sub for that.

You make some good points there spyguy and I agree that the real issue is a tax system that allows this to happen.

[Hullabaloo82]

Not sure where the graun are getting their figures from but the companies house site shows they had a tax credit of £1.3m last year and corporation tax liability of £1.7m in 2017, so a £3m swing. 

As I understand it Amazon UK is basically a delivery service for the main Amazon in Luxembourg. Profits for their UK services firm were about £70m in the latest set of accounts so not huge. When you buy a book or an item of clothing or whatever you're actually buying it off Amazon in Europe not their UK firm so to talk about "UK profits" is missing the point. 

The real question is how we deal with international tax competition. We've basically got three choices here;

1. Accept the status quo;

2. Push other countries to bring their tax practices in line with ours or change ours to match theirs so there's more incentive for Amazon to book UK sales in the UK;

3. Try to legislate to prevent people buying stuff from Amazon in the UK so they use UK registered companies which will pay tax on UK sales.

I would suggest that 3 is impossible. Judging by the brexit vote (ie a vote to move away from a bloc which is looking to make 2 a possibility) we're pumping for 1. 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

48 minutes ago, Parkwell said:

Amazon don't make the laws so I don't see any point complaining at them. They are just smart enough to get me a better price and make a tonne of profit. Looks like common sense in action.

 

I believe Amazon, the big corps & the big 4 accounting mafia mates have a major influence on the content of the tax laws.

eg. I was told from a reliable source of the big 4 accountant firms giving free staff to go into no 10 , they then virtually wrote the tax laws in there . This was in Browns day 

[winkie]

Who is in control? Who is in charge?.....not a problem with the FAANGs as long as the playing field with other smaller businesses is level, and the big boys very good in what they do, do not price many local small firms out of business......there is enough space for everyone, but the establishment have to be fair, ethical and see certain big global corporations do not become more powerful than they are.

[bushblairandbrown]

7 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Not sure where the graun are getting their figures from but the companies house site shows they had a tax credit of £1.3m last year and corporation tax liability of £1.7m in 2017, so a £3m swing. 

As I understand it Amazon UK is basically a delivery service for the main Amazon in Luxembourg. Profits for their UK services firm were about £70m in the latest set of accounts so not huge. When you buy a book or an item of clothing or whatever you're actually buying it off Amazon in Europe not their UK firm so to talk about "UK profits" is missing the point. 

The real question is how we deal with international tax competition. We've basically got three choices here;

1. Accept the status quo;

2. Push other countries to bring their tax practices in line with ours or change ours to match theirs so there's more incentive for Amazon to book UK sales in the UK;

3. Try to legislate to prevent people buying stuff from Amazon in the UK so they use UK registered companies which will pay tax on UK sales.

I would suggest that 3 is impossible. Judging by the brexit vote (ie a vote to move away from a bloc which is looking to make 2 a possibility) we're pumping for 1. 

I would slap a nice tidy tax on online purchases.

The loss of real shops has gone far enough now. Shops pay big rates to the council. It's only fair that online retailers make a comparable contribution.

I really don't see any benefit to having more retail move online and I would love to see some serious analysis of just how much cheaper online retail would still be over traditional shops when tax is factored out. I expect it would be negligible. 

[spyguy]

9 hours ago, jonb2 said:

They avoid tax. Amazon runs on investment debt as well. This means not only do they have a dreadful name for how they treat their workers - but being financed by a huge 'legitimate' debt fusion reactor makes it very difficult for SMEs to survive.

http://observer.com/2018/04/amazon-britain-harsh-working-conditions/

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4185549-amazon-investment-fails-generation

https://www.thestreet.com/video/14491322/only-wall-street-s-dumbest-think-amazon-will-be-able-to-skirt-regulation-forever.html

Just watch Rollerball for what happens when  the world just ends up with The Corporation and nothing else.

Amazon and the other tech companies are prime examples of how human values are virtually extinct and why we are where we are.

 

If they avoided tax then theyd be in jail.