UK sets out a plan to become the world leader in electric vehicles

[winkie]

On 11/07/2018 at 11:56, Ballyk said:

Fair enough, in a free society you can choose an internal combustion engine, even if the EVs are objectively better.  I imagine you're likely to be heavily taxed though as time goes by.  Driving an ICE will be seen as a societal 'bad', as smoking is now, due to damage to local air quality.

All I ask is people are given the choice, clean conventional, mixed and electric only.....who likes to live in an all electric home? nice to have both gas and electric....the massive ships that move goods and people around the world are pumping out toxic fumes into the environment, we as a first world country still use diesel trains.....the cruise ships are wholely non enviromentally friendly sort the big stuff out first......buy local, trade local, move local will help........if the train network was cost effective many would use a clean train than a car to travel.....many have been priced out of dirty train travel.?

[Aidan Ap Word]

2 hours ago, Tes Tickle said:

Charging is always going to be a big issue.  I find it hard to believe that a battery can be fast-charged within a few minutes without significantly shortening its lifespan.

Fast charging the battery on an EV is only necessary a small proportion of the charging time.

And fast charging Teslas has only slight impact on the capacity of the battery (if any) ... but even this is hard to put together in terms of data because only a few people do it.

And they are proving to be significantly (very significantly) more stable over their real-world life (recharge cycles and types, mileage, torque usage, and more) than even the most advanced ICE.

All this with better performance (in terms of torque delivery at least), far higher convenience (like not having to scrape the ice off your car) and altogether more fun. And then the per mile cost of driving (in energy alone) is radically lower.

Now just sorting out the capital cost ... ah yes ...

[Riedquat]

27 minutes ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

All this with better performance (in terms of torque delivery at least), far higher convenience (like not having to scrape the ice off your car) and altogether more fun. And then the per mile cost of driving (in energy alone) is radically lower.

It's this sort of over-the-top stuff that puts me off simply because it's trying to make negligable or non advantages seem great. "Better performance" is nice but in the real world unless you're driving a bottom of the range car not really much of a changer. How often do you put your foot to the floor? Far higher convenience? How? The charging is an extra inconvenience. Not anywhere near as a big a one as is often made out, and shouldn't be big enough to be a big offputting factor (especially in the near future), assuming somewhere to charge is available, but it still is one. Not having to scrape ice off? Scraping ice off is hardly a big inconvenience, so "far higher convenience" can't stack up, and the only way an electric car could avoid it is by constant use of electricity to keep a heater going even if you're not using the car for days, which is a bit wasteful. May as well just scrap the ice off. That's assuming it's plugged in of course.

Since so much of the cost per mile difference is in tax that'll change. Electrics should still be cheaper even with comparable tax regimes but the gap will narrow.

I'm all for electric cars but excessive over-enthusiasm about minor at best aspects leaves people rolling their eyes at the idea.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Riedquat

[winkie]

I look at an electric car much the same as I look on an expensive cordless vacuum cleaner......fine until require a new battery at great expense about a third of the cost of the whole machine as new, customer for life......what a waste of energy and resources making and disposal of batteries.......will never buy a cordless again, back to old plugin, owned and paid for.....gimmicky.?

[Confusion of VIs]

21 minutes ago, winkie said:

I look at an electric car much the same as I look on an expensive cordless vacuum cleaner......fine until require a new battery at great expense about a third of the cost of the whole machine as new, customer for life......what a waste of energy and resources making and disposal of batteries.......will never buy a cordless again, back to old plugin, owned and paid for.....gimmicky.?

Our GTECH cleaner is now about 4 years old and the battery shows no sign of failing, and unlike our previous Dysons has required no repairs or maintenance during that time.

Battery life is already pretty much yesterday's problem.     

Edited July 12, 2018 by Confusion of VIs

[Ballyk]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

All I ask is people are given the choice, clean conventional, mixed and electric only.....who likes to live in an all electric home? nice to have both gas and electric....the massive ships that move goods and people around the world are pumping out toxic fumes into the environment, we as a first world country still use diesel trains.....the cruise ships are wholely non enviromentally friendly sort the big stuff out first......buy local, trade local, move local will help........if the train network was cost effective many would use a clean train than a car to travel.....many have been priced out of dirty train travel.?

sort the big stuff out first >>> sort the big stuff out at the same time.

No reason why we can't be tackling lots of different things.  Re cruise ships, in Norway only fully electric ships will be allowed in some of the fjords by 2026, already they have some electric ferries.  We can sort our electrification of trains, with new technology there will be hybrid trains allowing regenerative braking.  And battery powered trains with 'flash charging' in stations and along sections of electrified tracks will make it possible for much cheaper / less disruptive electrification schemes.  

[winkie]

34 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Our GTECH cleaner is now about 4 years old and the battery shows no sign of failing, and unlike our previous Dysons has required no repairs or maintenance during that time.

Battery life is already pretty much yesterday's problem.     

Yep, thought 40 was stretching it somewhat.....all batteries slowly diminish over time, they want recharging more regularly, last just that little bit less from full charge the older they get......buying an electric car means renting the battery......do you want to own or rent??

[Confusion of VIs]

2 minutes ago, winkie said:

Yep, thought 40 was stretching it somewhat.....all batteries slowly diminish over time, they want recharging more regularly, last just that little bit less from full charge the older they get......buying an electric car means renting the battery......do you want to own or rent??

They did but in practical terms not any more.

Early Teslas had batteries that were expected to last around 60-80k miles. The live monitoring that happens every time they are used is now projecting a life of well over 250k miles.

Since then the technology has moved on and current Teslas batteries are now projected to last at least 500k miles.  In reflection of this Tesla now provides an 8 year infinite mile warranty on both its battery and drive train.

I think that for most people battery life is now not, or at least shouldn't be, as concern.  

[winkie]

45 minutes ago, Ballyk said:

sort the big stuff out first >>> sort the big stuff out at the same time.

No reason why we can't be tackling lots of different things.  Re cruise ships, in Norway only fully electric ships will be allowed in some of the fjords by 2026, already they have some electric ferries.  We can sort our electrification of trains, with new technology there will be hybrid trains allowing regenerative braking.  And battery powered trains with 'flash charging' in stations and along sections of electrified tracks will make it possible for much cheaper / less disruptive electrification schemes.  

That would be nice, will wait and see......at the moment we are years behind other countries that heavily  invested in their train network...... what happened??

[winkie]

15 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

They did but in practical terms not any more.

Early Teslas had batteries that were expected to last around 60-80k miles. The live monitoring that happens every time they are used is now projecting a life of well over 250k miles.

Since then the technology has moved on and current Teslas batteries are now projected to last at least 500k miles.  In reflection of this Tesla now provides an 8 year infinite mile warranty on both its battery and drive train.

I think that for most people battery life is now not, or at least shouldn't be, as concern.  

How much will it cost to rent the battery, buy the car, pay for the electricity to put in the car, rent the road (tolls & taxes) to drive on the roads......how will the electricity be generated? from fossil fuels? or wind and sun?

I think they don't really want people owning their own vehicle, they want them to rent them driverless as and when they require them....less freedom and potentially massive profits to be made for some.?

[Andy T]

16 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

They did but in practical terms not any more.

Early Teslas had batteries that were expected to last around 60-80k miles. The live monitoring that happens every time they are used is now projecting a life of well over 250k miles.

Since then the technology has moved on and current Teslas batteries are now projected to last at least 500k miles.  In reflection of this Tesla now provides an 8 year infinite mile warranty on both its battery and drive train.

I think that for most people battery life is now not, or at least shouldn't be, as concern.  

This is interesting. It makes buying a used one a less risky proposition, if it could go on for years without needing battery or drivetrain replacement.

Of course there are environmental costs with producing these large batteries, mining and processing cobalt and lithium etc,  but if these cars could go on working for years and years or maybe decades without battery/drivetrain replacment, then perhaps these costs would be offset somewhat, compared with the pollution created by IC vehicles/fuel refinery costs over the same period - how long would an electric vehicle have to last to 'pay back' those costs?

Or is there a risk that in future that we go fully into financed/rented vehicles, 3 years then obsolete, nobody wanting or knowing how to maintain them, so early scrappage and big environmental cost of disposal and making replacements?

I hear lithium and cobalt have supply issues now,  in future do they become more difficult to find and mine, pushing up the costs of  EV's massively?

[Confusion of VIs]

14 minutes ago, Andy T said:

This is interesting. It makes buying a used one a less risky proposition, if it could go on for years without needing battery or drivetrain replacement.

Of course there are environmental costs with producing these large batteries, mining and processing cobalt and lithium etc,  but if these cars could go on working for years and years or maybe decades without battery/drivetrain replacment, then perhaps these costs would be offset somewhat, compared with the pollution created by IC vehicles/fuel refinery costs over the same period - how long would an electric vehicle have to last to 'pay back' those costs?

Or is there a risk that in future that we go fully into financed/rented vehicles, 3 years then obsolete, nobody wanting or knowing how to maintain them, so early scrappage and big environmental cost of disposal and making replacements?

I hear lithium and cobalt have supply issues now,  in future do they become more difficult to find and mine, pushing up the costs of  EV's massively?

I think many of the question you have raised will be answered in the next few years. 

I took the plunge and bought  a second hand BMW i3 earlier this year. I was going to wait another year or so but prices had already started to rise as battery life became less of a concern for buyers. The fact that we pay over £3000 a year on the London congestion charge made it a no brainer really.

I do think we will go more into a rental model for EV's, in truth we already are with leasing deals becoming the norm. The problem for the manufactures is the opposite of your concern, i.e. that EVs are going to last a very long time probably 1m miles or more.  

Lithium and Cobalt could be a bottleneck but manufactures are working to reduce the need for Cobalt, for both batteries and motors, and lithium production is ramping up so quickly that now there are concerns about oversupply forcing prices down.  

 

[Funn3r]

A few years ago I met socially a German guy who was an automotive designer. I don't really understand cars but it was nevertheless a very interesting conversation. He told me the charging and range problems for electric-only vehicles were likely insoluble except for edge cases and most cars would always be a hybrid. According to him the 2-stroke had a terrible reputation thanks to Honda and everyone naturally regards them as greasy smelly things only suitable for lawnmowers. In fact they are incredibly well suited to the design of a 2-stroke/electric hybrid and that's the future.

[Funn3r]

On 09/07/2018 at 16:22, nome said:

how are they all going to charge from one lamp post? Cables trailing all along the pavement? Idiot yoofs unplugging them all for a laugh?

A few carefully-engineered "accidents" involving yoof being fried with 350v 200A might deter that behaviour

[Andy T]

10 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

A few years ago I met socially a German guy who was an automotive designer. I don't really understand cars but it was nevertheless a very interesting conversation. He told me the charging and range problems for electric-only vehicles were likely insoluble except for edge cases and most cars would always be a hybrid. According to him the 2-stroke had a terrible reputation thanks to Honda and everyone naturally regards them as greasy smelly things only suitable for lawnmowers. In fact they are incredibly well suited to the design of a 2-stroke/electric hybrid and that's the future. 

Nature of the 2 stroke design is that they burn some oil, emissions are awful.

I might be convinced into full EV at some point, but an even more complicated vehicle with both electric motors and a polluting IC engine that will need servicing and potentially go wrong just seems like a poor solution.

[Riedquat]

20 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

A few years ago I met socially a German guy who was an automotive designer. I don't really understand cars but it was nevertheless a very interesting conversation. He told me the charging and range problems for electric-only vehicles were likely insoluble except for edge cases and most cars would always be a hybrid. According to him the 2-stroke had a terrible reputation thanks to Honda and everyone naturally regards them as greasy smelly things only suitable for lawnmowers. In fact they are incredibly well suited to the design of a 2-stroke/electric hybrid and that's the future.

We'll quite possibly never have electric cars that can be charged as quickly as filling up with petrol but batteries do seem to be moving on at quite a pace so I'd be surprised if range is always a problem.

[Tes Tickle]

I suppose if the range improves (as is already happening constantly), then charging time becomes less of a problem.

If there's enough range for 99% of my journeys then I'll forgive having to sit around with an overpriced burger and coffee for a while when I make the odd journey where it needs a halfway charge.

I wonder what charging etiquette will evolve in the future.  If your visitors charge their car at your house should they leave a tenner next to the meter so you can pay your bill?  I wonder how people go on with this, and whether it ever causes friction between the middle classes?

[Riedquat]

4 minutes ago, Tes Tickle said:

I suppose if the range improves (as is already happening constantly), then charging time becomes less of a problem.

If there's enough range for 99% of my journeys then I'll forgive having to sit around with an overpriced burger and coffee for a while when I make the odd journey where it needs a halfway charge.

If we're very lucky the fact that people will be having to wait a bit longer might drive some competition to make places pleasant to wait in. That's rather too optimistic for me though!

[cashinmattress]

41 minutes ago, Tes Tickle said:

I wonder what charging etiquette will evolve in the future. 

I'd figure on there being some kind of system in place such as your contract with the energy provider network and some kind of  semi-automatic callout from your operating system to a charge station.

Such as: car has x minutes of charge, nearest station is x minutes, --> do you want to charge here: yes? your charging station is X, "you are in a queue and expected availability for charge point Y at station X is something-o-clock"... "your charging time is expected to be so-many-minutes/hours"... further, there will likely be some kind of incentive to 'wait' to receive discount tariffs.

Then there could be tier-to-tier charging options... ie: offer your excess charge at a station.

You're already charged for  'overtime'  or 'idle time' on a station I believe... Tesla has this in some places I've read. https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharger-idle-fee

It certainly can't be allowed to become a free for all at the services etc...; however, the current state of charging is nowhere near enough to allow for some kind of civilised workaround if they really start pushing for the UK to become a big Tyco slot car track.

We're not there yet. All it takes is 1 in a hundred cars to have depleted batteries and hog a station for 30+ minutes... imagine that with thousands and thousands of cars competing for a limited resource... which is what is on offer now.

Then you'll have those who've nipped out for some shopping, a pint, or have just forgotten to come back in time... or are just d1ckheads.

Unworkable in a big scale with today's and tomorrow's infrastructure... for now it is still a luxury when you can charge at home or office. Perhaps in another decade or so...

But I can image there will be some punch ups at stations and such until they have some legal framework in place to control the folk using them.

[Aidan Ap Word]

21 hours ago, Riedquat said:

The charging is an extra inconvenience

And going to the fuel station isn't? I spend far less time charging my car (in terms of my action to get the charging to run on schedule) than I would driving into a petrol station and pouring dangerous liquid into it. Charging my car very definitely is a convenience (relative to what I would otherwise have to do).

I can heat my car remotely and on demand. And it takes - at most (in terms of snow in the SE) - 20 minutes and I can drive off.

And I can cool my car remotely, too. Even quicker convenience.

If i want to I can set min and max temperatures for the cabin to be maintained on a schedule.

And I can move a lot more in my car that doesn't have to carry a bulky engine (and management system) around with me. More convenience again.

And I know where my car is at all times, couldn't do that with an ICE car without running a bigger battery in it than a 12V (when I am away for > 1 week for instance).

And I can manage the security remotely, more convenience.

And I get all the data I need on management and diagnostics of the car remotely. More convenience.

And I can get even deeper diagnostic data to the professionals if anything is wrong (in specific cases the professionals have contacted owners before the owner even knew anything was wrong).

And I don't have to get it serviced every year (huge convenience).

The idea that an ICE car is more convenient than an EV is 1 big lie.

And then there are the other little things besides.

 

[Aidan Ap Word]

22 hours ago, Riedquat said:

How often do you put your foot to the floor?

I don't need to put my foot to the floor in my car to have fun.

 

22 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Since so much of the cost per mile difference is in tax that'll change. Electrics should still be cheaper even with comparable tax regimes but the gap will narrow.

They can't tax the energy I capture on my own roof as easily as they tax hydrocarbons delivered into a retail situation.

They can't tax the electrical energy I place in my car differently from the way they tax the electrical energy I use in my home. So they would have to add tax at 70% (or whatever hydrocarbons are taxed at in the UK) to all of us in all of our electricity for an EV owner to be set back to ICE levels in terms of taxation exposure. Because the information on which is for the car and which is for the house there is no way to make comparable tax unless the government wishes to own all the data around every charging event in the country (already proven to be beyond their data management capacity and they have very much bigger fish to fry - and more tax-profitable ones too).

[cashinmattress]

27 minutes ago, Aidan Ap Word said:

And going to the fuel station isn't? I spend far less time charging my car (in terms of my action to get the charging to run on schedule) than I would driving into a petrol station and pouring dangerous liquid into it. Charging my car very definitely is a convenience (relative to what I would otherwise have to do).

I can heat my car remotely and on demand. And it takes - at most (in terms of snow in the SE) - 20 minutes and I can drive off.

And I can cool my car remotely, too. Even quicker convenience.

If i want to I can set min and max temperatures for the cabin to be maintained on a schedule.

And I can move a lot more in my car that doesn't have to carry a bulky engine (and management system) around with me. More convenience again.

And I know where my car is at all times, couldn't do that with an ICE car without running a bigger battery in it than a 12V (when I am away for > 1 week for instance).

And I can manage the security remotely, more convenience.

And I get all the data I need on management and diagnostics of the car remotely. More convenience.

And I can get even deeper diagnostic data to the professionals if anything is wrong (in specific cases the professionals have contacted owners before the owner even knew anything was wrong).

And I don't have to get it serviced every year (huge convenience).

The idea that an ICE car is more convenient than an EV is 1 big lie.

And then there are the other little things besides.

 

What you've written is just silly mate.... plus it's got more holes than I dare to comment on... your peer review would come back with a 'serious reservation' or two...

And

And

And

Let's see how your car does on a return trip from Plymouth to Aberdeen say... sticking to legal limits of course.

 

[Aidan Ap Word]

54 minutes ago, cashinmattress said:

Let's see how your car does on a return trip from Plymouth to Aberdeen say... sticking to legal limits of course.

People do that, and very much more, all the time. Video evidence abounds. And you don't need to use a Tesla to do this either.

Including people who use EVs (though more often they are Tesla) as professional delivery vehicles; and excellent touring cars; and road trippers in the US; and workhorse cars for Sales persons in Canada (UK distances pale in comparison with those). Some of the longest serving taxis (in terms of distance driven) in the world are Tesla.

Extreme examples include: pulling trailers over mountains for many hundreds of miles for instance in Norway all the time (as just 1 example). And for far longer distances in much worse conditions (often -15 or -20 degrees centigrade). And have been doing this for years.

A further convenience comes to mind: I can sleep in my Tesla in inclement conditions without leaving the engine running.

55 minutes ago, cashinmattress said:

What you've written is just silly mate

Silly? How so? I spoke directly of the conveniences I use every day on my car that I couldn't do with an ICE, in a list.

Please don't confuse an efficient (if inelegant) abuse of grammar with weakness in argument.

[Aidan Ap Word]

4 hours ago, Andy T said:

He told me the charging and range problems for electric-only vehicles were likely insoluble except for edge cases and most cars would always be a hybrid.

Except Nissan, Jaguar, Tesla, Hyundai and many more have proven him wrong on this.

[Aidan Ap Word]

1 hour ago, cashinmattress said:

 

Let's see how your car does on a return trip from Plymouth to Aberdeen say... sticking to legal limits of course.

 

Return Plymouth to Aberdeen is 1300 miles.

Charging 8 times for 20 minutes each would cost less than 3 hours in a journey of 22 hours (if you are lucky with traffic).

That said ... if you plan on driving for nearly 24 hours without stopping to sleep ... probably not wise.

#worriedIAmFeedingATroll