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Record number of BTL selling up

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You seriously won't hear much respect coming from me in general for BTL landlords as people or as business people, in fact in the vast majority of cases I find their business sense appalling. It usually ranges from bragging down the pub when things went well and they did no work  except take out the loan and buy the house to crying and wailing because someone altered the rules and they had to plan. and do a little work.

So as business people I am probably not shocked that so many of them who have made vasts sums of money, and they have made vast sums of money, have not said to themselves that this could be close to game up soon and take the profits they have made while they can. I think greed is going to catch a lot of them out, so many of them do like that feeling of every month receiving a nice big pay cheque rather than having to cash in and the start living off the capital gains, the monthly collection of rents making them think they are some how earning a wage and contributing to society.

But maybe few have a few brain cells and are getting out while they can

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Same ARLA report also picked up by Property Industry Eye

Quote

 A record number of landlords are now exiting the market, letting agents say.

Source

Just think, if London landlords had listened to us in Q3 2015 they would have been selling into a buoyant market within a whisker of reaching it's most recent peak. They could be sitting at home counting their winnings instead of worrying about whether they'd left it too late. I think the 'Sell now, sell everything' window might be closing and if events turn against them it could be time for 'Lose now, lose everything'.

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Also picked up by The Times (timestamp is May 31 2018, 5:00pm)

Quote

The number of buy-to-let landlords selling their properties is at its highest level since 2015, according to letting agents, as a “barrage of legislative changes” hit the sector.

Source

As usual the the FT Adviser reporting is the best on offer (and as usual 'fair use' restriction to a single sentence quote). Lots more at the link.

Quote

Martin Stewart, founder, director and independent mortgage adviser at London Money Financial Services, said: "Buy-to-let in London is a dead parrot, there is no life in it.

Source: Spike in landlord exodus as buy-to-let market sours, FT Adviser, 31 May 2018

DescriptiveMindlessAntipodesgreenparakee

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Also picked up by City AM

Quote

In a further sign that Britain is turning away from the private landlord model, Propertymark found that letting agents in April saw the highest number of landlords selling their buy-to-let properties since records began in 2015.

Source

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I am not going to hunt for the original source data, but what is mentioned in the article is not compelling and is intentionally or otherwise presented in a way to create a certain narrative. I would not read anything into that useless article. The only thing mildly interesting and meaningful may be the number of properties under management per branch. But that could just be due to an increase in the number of branches.

As for the rest of it, need the source data. ARLA propagandist in chief, Mr Cox, does not understand stats, or does not want you to understand them.

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Good news :)

I think it's telling that ARLA's records only began in 2015. Presumably at the same time as the company began; created, one assumes due to demand for representation from the ever-growing number of these BTL leeches latching onto the bloated, bobbing soon-to-be-corpse of the housing bubble as it gently slips below the water line..

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On 01/06/2018 at 07:30, inbruges said:

You seriously won't hear much respect coming from me in general for BTL landlords as people or as business people, in fact in the vast majority of cases I find their business sense appalling. It usually ranges from bragging down the pub when things went well and they did no work  except take out the loan and buy the house to crying and wailing because someone altered the rules and they had to plan. and do a little work.

So as business people I am probably not shocked that so many of them who have made vasts sums of money, and they have made vast sums of money, have not said to themselves that this could be close to game up soon and take the profits they have made while they can. I think greed is going to catch a lot of them out, so many of them do like that feeling of every month receiving a nice big pay cheque rather than having to cash in and the start living off the capital gains, the monthly collection of rents making them think they are some how earning a wage and contributing to society.

But maybe few have a few brain cells and are getting out while they can

That's the thing with cheap credit and the bubbles it propagates...it makes mathematically inept, reckless fools believe they are financial geniuses.

And they appear to be such - for a while...hopefully from a politician's PoV, until after the next election.

We're all expected to be amateur speculators now it seems, in order to provide for our dotage. No 'mollycoddling' and provision of 5% IRs to allow us to use compound interest to build a pension - that's yesterday's thinking! Socialism! No, we must use the cheap credit to speculate and build wealth!

This is all going to come back now and bite us in the ar5e as a nation. Big time.

 

 

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13 hours ago, ftb_fml said:

Good news :)

I think it's telling that ARLA's records only began in 2015. Presumably at the same time as the company began; created, one assumes due to demand for representation from the ever-growing number of these BTL leeches latching onto the bloated, bobbing soon-to-be-corpse of the housing bubble as it gently slips below the water line..

Records began in 2015 ...... really reaching back into the dim distant past there.

Id guess records began when HMRC insisted agents start recording LL details.

Of courses Id expect ARLA agents to have vast details on LLs and the like, being a very professional setup ....

 

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Yes and it’s going to get worse when the first s24 tax bills hit plus strong rumours that the government are coming after incorporated landlords next aswell. They are gradually shutting down the PRS .Why I ask ? it’s going to bite them on the ****

I have partly been spreading the rumours. Every landlord that incorporates needs reminding that this is the next logical step. No idea whether there is any truth in it.

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7 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

I have partly been spreading the rumours. Every landlord that incorporates needs reminding that this is the next logical step. No idea whether there is any truth in it.

 

Yes, I have got a feeling these rumours are based on nothing and are self-perpetuating. Jeremy Hunt doesnt seem to see that coming.

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8 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

 

Yes, I have got a feeling these rumours are based on nothing and are self-perpetuating. Jeremy Hunt doesnt seem to see that coming.

It is a glaringly unbalanced tax system and HMRC hate loopholes. There is a clear loophole in a new law and it is a pretty easy one for them to fix, so I do not see why it will not be. As Jeremy Hunt is not Chancellor and never will be, I do not think that his purchases are necessarily a guide to future tax changes.

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4 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

Yes, I have got a feeling these rumours are based on nothing and are self-perpetuating. Jeremy Hunt doesnt seem to see that coming.

Except of course for the suggestion from the Treasury's Office of Tax Simplification's recent consultation

Quote

A more radical option would be to end the differential tax rates for dividend income. If all taxable income was taxed at the same rates, it would not matter how the personal allowance was used. Making this change would have the effect of increasing the amount of tax due from those who receive amounts of dividend income above the allowance. It would also impact on the taxation of profit extracted as a salary or as a dividend, from family owned companies

Link

Any leveraged landlords consoling themselves with the thought that radical options seldom become policy ought to cast their minds back to 8 July 2015.

If your signal to get out of property is the day that Conservative cabinet ministers get out of property then you can look forward to a long wait for a train that doesn't come.

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17 hours ago, AdamoMucci said:

I am not going to hunt for the original source data, but what is mentioned in the article is not compelling and is intentionally or otherwise presented in a way to create a certain narrative. I would not read anything into that useless article. The only thing mildly interesting and meaningful may be the number of properties under management per branch. But that could just be due to an increase in the number of branches.

As for the rest of it, need the source data. ARLA propagandist in chief, Mr Cox, does not understand stats, or does not want you to understand them.

True that ARLA's adventures in stats are an absolute joke

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42 minutes ago, AdamoMucci said:

Yes, I have got a feeling these rumours are based on nothing and are self-perpetuating. Jeremy Hunt doesnt seem to see that coming.

I think that a rumour's fate sometimes depends on the extent to which it fits in with things that people already believe. If people put no credit in a rumour then they won't regurgitate it. In light of that, the following remarks from one of the PovertyLaters can be interpreted as indicating that the leveraged portfolio landlords are finally reaching the final of the five stages of the  Kübler-Ross model; acceptance.

image.png.ef91229a5bd02ddc0355bf6a2e7537b6.png

Source

Edited by Beary McBearface

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On 01/06/2018 at 11:54, thewig said:

The bonfire of the DEBTjunkie scumbags continues. It’s gonna be hilarious watching these clowns BURN

Agree, as long as they don't try and make us burn with them. Rather than chase you and me for their losses I want these people chased to the grave for their debt. I have a 1/2 dozen ideas how to protect a lot of my money without it ever finding it's way into paying these muppets debt, I not going to sit back and take it next time.

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4 hours ago, Ah-so said:

I have partly been spreading the rumours. Every landlord that incorporates needs reminding that this is the next logical step. No idea whether there is any truth in it.

Won't the proposed changes to how dividends are taxed do this without any other changes being necessary (i.e. increasing/equalising the tax paid on dividends to income tax levels)?

https://www.ft.com/content/b4556398-5f60-11e8-ad91-e01af256df68

"Radical dividend tax proposal poses threat to rich savers"

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10 hours ago, zilly said:

That's the thing with cheap credit and the bubbles it propagates...it makes mathematically inept, reckless fools believe they are financial geniuses.

And they appear to be such - for a while...hopefully from a politician's PoV, until after the next election.

We're all expected to be amateur speculators now it seems, in order to provide for our dotage. No 'mollycoddling' and provision of 5% IRs to allow us to use compound interest to build a pension - that's yesterday's thinking! Socialism! No, we must use the cheap credit to speculate and build wealth!

This is all going to come back now and bite us in the ar5e as a nation. Big time.

 

 

Not cheap credit, grossly mispriced debt.

There are big changes coming for heavily leveraged operators, esp. In real estate.

2008 saw a very dim light bulb going on ans the realisation that banks need keeping awayfrom real estate.

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8 hours ago, Ah-so said:

It is a glaringly unbalanced tax system and HMRC hate loopholes. There is a clear loophole in a new law and it is a pretty easy one for them to fix, so I do not see why it will not be. As Jeremy Hunt is not Chancellor and never will be, I do not think that his purchases are necessarily a guide to future tax changes.

 

8 hours ago, Beary McBearface said:

Except of course for the suggestion from the Treasury's Office of Tax Simplification's recent consultation

 

8 hours ago, Beary McBearface said:

I think that a rumour's fate sometimes depends on the extent to which it fits in with things that people already believe. If people put no credit in a rumour then they won't regurgitate it. In light of that, the following remarks from one of the PovertyLaters can be interpreted as indicating that the leveraged portfolio landlords are finally reaching the final of the five stages of the  Kübler-Ross model; acceptance.

 

Hmm, I guess there could be something to it. Nice to be wrong on it. Shame they describe it as "radical" but it is better than nothing. Of course there is the fact that Hunt is hardly a genius too. Let us hope they make this easy, very sensible move.

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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