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Nick_wacker

Reintroduce the full mortgage interest relief

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There are two competing No.10 petitions as has been posted on here so I think the petition to REMOVE the interest relief needs a boost as it only has 269 signatures;

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/219416

 

sadly the petition to reintroduce the mortgage relief has 13078 signatures....

Reintroduce full mortgage interest relief and drop the 3% stamp duty surcharge

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/219279

 

 

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On 23/05/2018 at 22:29, Nick_wacker said:

There are two competing No.10 petitions as has been posted on here so I think the petition to REMOVE the interest relief needs a boost as it only has 269 signatures;

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/219416

 

sadly the petition to reintroduce the mortgage relief has 13078 signatures....

Reintroduce full mortgage interest relief and drop the 3% stamp duty surcharge

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/219279

 

 

After reaching the 10,000 signature mark, the landlords now have a government response to their petition:

"Higher SDLT on additional dwellings and restricting finance cost relief seeks to support first-time buyers and level the playing field for homeowners. Neither measure is expected to impact rent levels

Read the response in full

The Government introduced changes to finance cost relief as part of a package of measures at Summer Budget 2015 to help reduce the deficit and rebalance the economy. By restricting landlord’s finance cost relief to the basic rate of income tax we are helping to reduce the advantage landlords may have over homeowners in the property market. Income tax relief for finance costs is not available to ordinary homebuyers. It is also not available to those investing in other assets, such as shares, so we’re helping to reduce the distortion between property investment and investment in other assets.

Previously, landlords could get relief on their finance costs at their marginal rate of income tax. By restricting finance cost relief to the basic rate, all individual landlords will receive the same rate of income tax relief on their finance costs. 
Landlords can still claim income tax relief at their marginal rate of tax on day-to-day running costs incurred in letting out a property, such as letting agent fees and replacing furniture. Finance costs are different to other expenses as having a mortgage allows the landlord to purchase a more expensive property and incur larger gains on the investment than they would have done without it.

Using actual self-assessment data, HMRC estimate that only 1 in 5 landlords will pay more tax on their property income because of this measure. We appreciate that some of these landlords may face difficult decisions. This is why the government has chosen to act in a proportionate and gradual way. Basic rate income tax relief will still be available on all landlord's finance costs, and the government announced this change almost two years before its implementation. The restriction, introduced in April 2017, is being phased in over 4 years. This gives landlords time to adjust to the changes.

Given that only a small proportion of the housing market is affected by this change, the government does not expect it to have a large impact on either house prices or rent levels. The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) also expect the impact on the housing market will be small. 

In April 2016, the Government introduced higher rates of Stamp Duty Land Tax (SDLT) for those purchasing additional properties. While it is right that people should be free to purchase a second home or invest in a buy-to-let property, the Government is aware that this can impact on other people’s ability to get on to the property ladder. The higher rates are part of the Government’s commitment to support first time buyers. Since the higher rates have been introduced, over 500,000 people have bought their first home, and first-time buyers make up an increased share of the mortgaged property market.

At Autumn Budget 2017, the Government announced further changes to permanently increase the price at which a property becomes liable to SDLT to £300,000 for first time buyers, with first-time buyers purchasing homes worth between £300,000 and £500,000 saving £5,000. This relief means that 80% of first-time buyers will not pay SDLT, and 95% of first time buyers who pay SDLT will benefit from the change. Since its introduction, 69,000 people have benefited from the relief. Over the next five years, this relief will help over a million first time buyers getting onto the housing ladder.

The Government has also taken wider action on housing to help renters get a fair deal and to address homelessness and rough sleeping. At Autumn Budget 2017, the Government committed to £2 billion of extra funding for affordable housing, including for social rented homes, bringing total investment in the Affordable Homes Programme to more than £9 billion. The Government has also allocated over £1.2 billion by 2019/20 to help reduce and prevent homelessness and rough sleeping and is implementing the Homelessness Reduction Act, which will ensure that more people get the help they need earlier to prevent them from becoming homeless in the first place. The Government aims to halve rough sleeping by 2022 and eliminate it by 2027, and has set up a Rough Sleeping and Homelessness Reduction Taskforce to develop a cross-Government strategy to work towards this commitment.

HM Treasury"

Explains why the petition has completely stalled...

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Fantastic response from HMT. Clearly shows the landlords that they have not made any progress but instead the government is more resolute in its decision and is comfortable that the data show that it was the correct decision.

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24 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

Fantastic response from HMT. Clearly shows the landlords that they have not made any progress but instead the government is more resolute in its decision and is comfortable that the data show that it was the correct decision.

Yep. It is clear that (despite all of the bluster), Section24 is going absolutely nowhere!

And no reason to believe that any other political parties would get rid of it either. 

A crushing blow!

They must surely be looking at Section24b now (removal of the remaining tax relief). It's the logical conclusion.

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Good to see the response from HMT. 

 

Rather disheartening to see the huge number of signatures on the reintroduce petition compared to the numbers on 'our' petition.

 

It really does show that when it comes to all things anti HPI, anti BTL, anti ZIRP, anti HTB etc... we here on HPC are a tiny and utterly irrelevant minority.

Even people who don't (yet) have a vested interest in property seem to be entirely in favour of all of the above.

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17 minutes ago, nome said:

Good to see the response from HMT. 

 

Rather disheartening to see the huge number of signatures on the reintroduce petition compared to the numbers on 'our' petition.

 

It really does show that when it comes to all things anti HPI, anti BTL, anti ZIRP, anti HTB etc... we here on HPC are a tiny and utterly irrelevant minority.

Even people who don't (yet) have a vested interest in property seem to be entirely in favour of all of the above.

The difference is that landlords are more organised/political; they have a real vested interest in this and efforts are being orchestrated not only by the likes of parasite118/property tripe but ATTT and various property news sites. Tenants generally want to just get on with life. They see landlord tax as none of their business.

Quite simply, we are outgunned.

I was disappointed that Generation Rent did not want to publicise it but did at least respond eventually... No response yet from any other organisations including Momentum. Make of that what you will...

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1 hour ago, nome said:

Good to see the response from HMT. 

 

Rather disheartening to see the huge number of signatures on the reintroduce petition compared to the numbers on 'our' petition.

 

It really does show that when it comes to all things anti HPI, anti BTL, anti ZIRP, anti HTB etc... we here on HPC are a tiny and utterly irrelevant minority.

Even people who don't (yet) have a vested interest in property seem to be entirely in favour of all of the above.

'Using actual self-assessment data, HMRC estimate that only 1 in 5 landlords will pay more tax '

I think HMRC is using a very broad description of LL on this.

*All* leveraged IO BTL will be hammered.

I think HMRC are countin pub land lords, commercial ll etc etc.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, spyguy said:

All* leveraged IO BTL will be hammered

I agree. But this matches the response they have to the previous petition.

To be fair, the 1-in-5 landlords affected probably "own" 50% of the rental stock. 

And we are seeing tenant arrears increasing now; further evidence that the oft threatened rent rises are simply not possible in most cases.

This response really is a crushing setback to landlords' efforts to get Section 24 reversed. It shows they are no closer now to achieving this than they were a couple of years ago. 

Time to pay the piper!

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15 minutes ago, oatbake said:

To be fair, the 1-in-5 landlords affected probably "own" 50% of the rental stock. 

According to govt figures below there are 4.8mn private rental properties. Even at a simple 1 in 5 that would 'release' almost a million properties back  onto the market. If the figure is closer to 50% that would be 2.4 million properties.

The last figure I can find for total residential property transactions in a year in the UK is just under 850k in 2016 from a peak of 1.3mn in 2007 - the potential flood to the market could quadruple the available stock - it's a literal tsunami of magnolia 1 and 2 bed new build flats.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710382/Dwelling_Stock_Estimates_2017_England.pdf

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2 minutes ago, regprentice said:

The last figure I can find for total residential property transactions in a year in the UK is just under 850k in 2016 from a peak of 1.3mn in 2007 - the potential flood to the market could quadruple the available stock - it's a literal tsunami of magnolia 1 and 2 bed new build flats.

It will get worse for leveraged landlords. As the mass sell-up happens, it will drive down prices, and will leave many in negative equity. CGT will soon be the least of their worries. 

The smart ones took the hit and sold up when S24 was first announced. As one of the landlords on parasite118 said recently, "if you're going to panic, panic first!" 

Corbyn is now talking about rent controls and banning Section 21 and there are rumblings of another general election. Nobody wants to be seen to be on the side of "greedy" landlords. The Tories know that no matter how any times they get kicked, landlords will vote for them as the alternative (Corbyn) will be even worse.  The direction of travel is obvious.

I have had some good and decent landlords over the last 15 years of renting, but the fact remains that the massive investment in BTL has distorted the market and pushed up prices for first time buyers. We need to get back to the average home being 4 times the average wage. At the moment, its closer to 8 times, and probably a lot more in the southeast. 

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24 minutes ago, oatbake said:

It will get worse for leveraged landlords. As the mass sell-up happens, it will drive down prices, and will leave many in negative equity. CGT will soon be the least of their worries. 

The smart ones took the hit and sold up when S24 was first announced. As one of the landlords on parasite118 said recently, "if you're going to panic, panic first!" 

Corbyn is now talking about rent controls and banning Section 21 and there are rumblings of another general election. Nobody wants to be seen to be on the side of "greedy" landlords. The Tories know that no matter how any times they get kicked, landlords will vote for them as the alternative (Corbyn) will be even worse.  The direction of travel is obvious.

I have had some good and decent landlords over the last 15 years of renting, but the fact remains that the massive investment in BTL has distorted the market and pushed up prices for first time buyers. We need to get back to the average home being 4 times the average wage. At the moment, its closer to 8 times, and probably a lot more in the southeast. 

It was so obvious really.

Gormless banks and ARLA.

The banks have gone from barely lending to LL, to only lending to LL, to not lending to LL at all again.

As soon as tthe bright idea of IO BTL went political, which was about 2012ish, banks should have stopped lending.

The political risk with these mortgages are extreme. There's risk that that a bank will not be able to evict a tenant if/when a LL defaults.

Again, repeating myself - regulated, high street banks should have never touched IO BTL mortg7ages with a barge pole.

 

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3 hours ago, oatbake said:

A crushing blow!

They must surely be looking at Section24b now (removal of the remaining tax relief). It's the logical conclusion

Maybe we should start a petition  for the introduction of it asap, that really will send 118 over the edge, not only will they be "forced to put their rents up", they will claim they will  have to shoot all the first born as well.

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The thing with the petition is that unless it is successfully it probably won't work.

What we really need to do would be to create an Institute of Family Fiscal Economics or something posh sounding like that and create a short policy document advocating the removal of interest allowances for Residential Property.  After all we are not asking for something that has been done to be removed we are after something being continued to its logical conclusion.

After all Ros continually plays on her phd in everyone of her posts - we could refer to a prestigious institute with far less hassle.  

Saying all that though I do suspect S24b is incredibly likely to come in once S24 is completed. HMRC needs every penny it can get.

Edited by Houdini

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5 minutes ago, inbruges said:

Signed 

 

Have you tried 118 for support ?

I would imagine it would go down like a cup of warm sick 🙂

For me, I don't hate landlords, but I do hate BTL and want to see the back of it. I hate what it has done to an entire generation. I hate the game, not the players. 

I have had some great landlords, who I have had a lot of respect for and who have been very fair. On the other hand, I've had some truly awful ones who've been out to screw tenants out of as much money as possible. Whilst it is a minority of landlords that fall into this category, it is a sizeable minority, and almost exclusively the leverage-up-and-hoover-up-properties-as-fast-as-possible types... 

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15 minutes ago, oatbake said:

I would imagine it would go down like a cup of warm sick 🙂

For me, I don't hate landlords, but I do hate BTL and want to see the back of it. I hate what it has done to an entire generation. I hate the game, not the players. 

I have had some great landlords, who I have had a lot of respect for and who have been very fair. On the other hand, I've had some truly awful ones who've been out to screw tenants out of as much money as possible. Whilst it is a minority of landlords that fall into this category, it is a sizeable minority, and almost exclusively the leverage-up-and-hoover-up-properties-as-fast-as-possible types... 

Sorry, but they are ALL scum.

That's the way I am playing this game, just because Hitler patted a dog or child on the head and loved his mother did not make him a great guy, and I am taking the same approach with all landlords, including my own family.

I also have the same attitude towards the famous, how many times do you hear "Oh he/she is just a regular person and you can talk to them just like you can a normal person", Oh Wow!!.

My landlord might make me a cup of tea, fix the boiler when he is supposed to, but up and down the country in the vast majority of cases they are taking most of the wages off people in rent in a s****y unfair system and just be part of it makes you one of the scum, end of.

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4 hours ago, nome said:

 

It really does show that when it comes to all things anti HPI, anti BTL, anti ZIRP, anti HTB etc... we here on HPC are a tiny and utterly irrelevant minority.

A tiny minority who actually give up their time to write about it. But not irrelevant and is rather more influential than you realise. Certainly more than Mark Alexander and his bunch of loonies.

It is not quantity but quality that counts. Influence the decision makers and you don't need 10,000 signatories for a petition. 

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1 hour ago, Ah-so said:

A tiny minority who actually give up their time to write about it. But not irrelevant and is rather more influential than you realise. Certainly more than Mark Alexander and his bunch of loonies.

It is not quantity but quality that counts. Influence the decision makers and you don't need 10,000 signatories for a petition. 

To reinforce that opinion, consider why the multitude of "property professionals" who troll these forums under the guise of first time buyers, renters etc. do what they do. They would not waste their time if they didn't think it was worthwhile. 

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2 hours ago, oatbake said:

I would imagine it would go down like a cup of warm sick 🙂

For me, I don't hate landlords, but I do hate BTL and want to see the back of it. I hate what it has done to an entire generation. I hate the game, not the players. 

I have had some great landlords, who I have had a lot of respect for and who have been very fair. On the other hand, I've had some truly awful ones who've been out to screw tenants out of as much money as possible. Whilst it is a minority of landlords that fall into this category, it is a sizeable minority, and almost exclusively the leverage-up-and-hoover-up-properties-as-fast-as-possible types... 

DEBTjunkies are all scumbags. People farming is exactly what it says on the tin. 

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12 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

To reinforce that opinion, consider why the multitude of "property professionals" who troll these forums under the guise of first time buyers, renters etc. do what they do. They would not waste their time if they didn't think it was worthwhile. 

I can't recall where how I stumbled across it, but I am the proud owner of a 1999 book by three academics at the University of Bristol's School for Policy Studies, Home Ownership in Crisis? The British experience of negative equity (link, I paid £5.56 for my copy, last August, now being offered for £60, so inflating and an annualised rate of 9,200%, this time next year it'll be worth about £5,600).

From the Introduction

Quote

Writing this book in 1998 it is easy to forget the gloomy and dramatic predictions about the future of the home ownership market in Britain throughout most of the decade. As the recession rolled on the home owner's world seemed to have changed forever. Estate agents' offices sat empty and abandoned in the high streets, conveyancing lawyers lost their jobs and property professionals appeared among the repossession casualties. In public houses and at dinner parties throughout the land the talk was not of price rises but price falls. It was one of those social disruptions so beloved by anthropologists when the central tenet of a cult is comprehensively undermined. A belief system, policy framework and institutional structure predicated on real house price inflation was suddenly knocked sideways. If house prices could fall substantially what could we believe anymore?

Critics of the forum often try to label it as a cult, but they couldn't be more wrong. Take one question that interests me, can the government prevent a crash? On the forum you'll see people presenting a wide array of different points of view on that question. That's not how a the belief system of a cult works. The members of a cult accept certain beliefs as self-evidently true; the idea of questioning those beliefs makes no sense and the beliefs are not questioned.

The trolls often try to present the forum from a very particular perspective; they invite lurkers to understand the forum as a place where people who've bet against house prices and lost come and wait for a crash that will prove them right. This isn't what the forum is at all, it's a troll fantasy of the forum. People post for lots of reasons and many posters I rate, including two on this thread, own their own homes.

Reflecting on @Ah-so's post, I think that questions are influential. The HPC forum is just one place where questions are asked about the implications of sustained real terms inflation of house prices. Through my exposure to HPC I've discovered other people asking questions (for example the work by the New Economics Foundation which has supported the books Where does money come? from and Re-thinking the economics of housing and land).

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3 hours ago, inbruges said:

Sorry, but they are ALL scum.

Obviously, you're entitled to your view.

However, I worry that we're setting up a counter-productive dynamic here (if we are I bear some responsibility for that and have been drawn into it).

If we attack property investors just for being property investors and we do so in the an aggressive and dehumanising way (e.g. "scum") then property investors who come to the forum and post will tend to do so 'undercover' and their posting will come across as trolling because it will sound a little bit off.

The reason I started this old thread back in the day was not to attack buy-to-let investors but to highlight that some vocal buy-to-let investors posting on the forum were talking through their hats. For me a poster being a buy-to-let investor is not something to be challenged; a poster who is dishing out BS with breezy confidence is possibly worth challenging. It's the BS that's the problem, not the BTL.

I personally think that buy-to-let lending is a terrible idea, but I respect that other people may hold a different view and I think the forum will be richer if they feel confident to express a different view. I know for a fact that some leveraged landlords are not scum because I know some people who, in the round, I admire and respect who also happen to have leveraged investments in rental property. I disagree with the choices that they've made in that regard but I can't see how that single choice can eclipse everything else about them and make them "scum".

Edited by Beary McBearface

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12 minutes ago, Beary McBearface said:

Obviously, you're entitled to your view.

However, I worry that we're setting up a counter-productive dynamic here (if we are I bear some responsibility for that and have been drawn into it).

If we attack property investors just for being property investors and we do so in the an aggressive and dehumanising way (e.g. "scum") then property investors who come to the forum and post will tend to do so 'undercover' and their posting will come across as trolling because it will sound a little bit off

Look, I seriously do get the point you are making and it's one that I once made myself at one time. But my way of thinking now  is similar to someone about to storm a German WW2 trench, there are no doubt many of those German men who in any other circumstance I would be more the happy to share a beer or two with and get on very well, but the trouble is they follow and are willing to protect and ideology that I despise.

So quite simply I must run them through with a bayonet no differently than  I would someone that is far more evil and compliant even though they might tell me they thought they were doing the right thing. But of course the war will one day be finished and if they hold no grudges and still alive we can still have that beer.

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14 minutes ago, inbruges said:

Look, I seriously do get the point you are making and it's one that I once made myself at one time. But my way of thinking now  is similar to someone about to storm a German WW2 trench, there are no doubt many of those German men who in any other circumstance I would be more the happy to share a beer or two with and get on very well, but the trouble is they follow and are willing to protect and ideology that I despise.

So quite simply I must run them through with a bayonet no differently than  I would someone that is far more evil and compliant even though they might tell me they thought they were doing the right thing. But of course the war will one day be finished and if they hold no grudges and still alive we can still have that beer.

This kind of thinking strikes me as unhealthy.

Firstly, the problems you wish to surmount can be fixed at the ballot box if enough people agree with you and if, as appears to be the case, most people disagree with you then you'll have to live with it; landlords are here to stay.

Secondly, it's healthier to accept your lack of power and find small ways in which you can engage constructively with the political process. You are not a soldier in a war, you are not part of an army. The soldier's ultimate significance rests not on his own beliefs or his own endeavours, it rests on the army of which he is a part, "just one part in a big war" (link).

Go out and enjoy the weather. The pace of change in UK property makes glaciers look like F1 cars. No good will come of imagining your engagement with these things as storming a trench and bayoneting people.

Edited by Beary McBearface

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4 hours ago, oatbake said:

have had some great landlords, who I have had a lot of respect for and who have been very fair. 

And yet, they thought it was ok to hoard housing in the depths of a housing crisis, and would have evicted you the minute you fell on hard times.

Lovely people.  

We have a problem in this country, I think it is a hangover from decades of enforced deference to the class system.

You can’t tell whether a person is bad or good from their accent or their manners.  A person is fair if they do fair things.  Landlording is never, under any circumstances, a fair thing.

Doesnt matter if they are softly spoken, doesn’t matter if they are philanthropists who love children.  

Heres a thought experiment: go to the house of a landlord, and tell them that if they don’t pay you £1000, now, you’ll throw them on the street.  

Would they like this do you think?  So why do they do it to other people?  

Because the government said they could.  In another life, they’d be running gulags, or enforcing racial segregation, trading slaves or whatever  else the state told them to do, whilst wearing a lovely tie and saying please and thank you.  

 

Edited by BuyToLeech

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  • 221 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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