Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum

Guardian at it again! Millenials... you can't afford a house because you drink Coffee & eat Avocado Toast


Recommended Posts

0
HOLA441
1 hour ago, Pop321 said:

Avacado? From Yorkshire on my last trip to London I went into a trendy sandwich bar and asked 'can I have something without humus, avocado or lentils please...a pork pie with gravy maybe'. Tongue in cheek of course a the young chap serving laughed until he cried. It was nice that a generational gap and a geographical one could be bridged with a mutual understanding of how different a funny we all are. 

Feels as though there is a 'divide and conquer' to all this. Those boomers never had many things we take for granted today...check out the housing conditions of the early 70's. Phones, coffees and even a modest night out represent an excess many then never knew. HOWEVER...the boomers then fail to see the things they took for granted (affordable home ownership, pensions, job security, free university) are now unattainable luxuries...and saving a few grand a year will not make up for that. So hope and incentive are removed  

If someone knows they can scimp for a few years and then have a 25% deposit on a proper home...then there is incentive to do so. Currently little or no incentive for that 5% deposit for a 'one bedder in Dagenham'. 

Boomers now sat on £800k homes and £15k household incomes....and young sat on £40k student debt but bigger incomes (albeit spent on rent).  

As neither a boomer or a millienum I observe in the middle. Very fortunate as a child who enjoyed the freedom of the late 70's and bought and sold my homes in the right side of some of the largest short term house price rises and drops ever during the late 80's and early 90's...very lucky. 

S24, stamp duty for BTL etc are a great direction. We just need to remove all props (HTB,stamp duty reliefs, IO mortgages etc) and let the market find its natural long term position of about 4 times income. 

London will plummet soon....if it isn't already. Articles like this just illustrate there is some generational catch up needed to ensure empathy. The rest of the Uk will follow. 

I get the London thing....but not sure why anyone (other than the natives) would actually want to live there? Earn more to spend more....nope Preston and the Daily Mash look better.?  But still HPC required up here too. 

I do get the funny side of avocado toast for boomers, but the truth is that young people are making many healthy eating decisions and getting torn to shreds for it. My other half often starts the day with avocado toast at home, ingredients from Aldi.

Yet we don't dare bring up the drinking "at every opportunity, including work lunch breaks" culture of the 70's/80's oh no, because alcohol cost pence back then, so a few a day didn't hurt. To say I'm a little jealous of the carefree nature of working life back then, told by my boomer colleagues about to retire on their full salary pensions vs 30 more years for me (at least) of ever stricter rules and big brother pressures, a rubbish pension if any at the end, is quite an understatement. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 145
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1
HOLA442
17 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

She earns £35k - and would get a mortgage of say £140k. So the £350k one bed she wants to buy would mean she requires a deposit of £210,000.

A coffee costs say £3 a day or around £1,100 a year. 

So on my calculations if she stops buying a coffee each day then in around 190 years she will have saved up enough deposit to buy that flat. Simples!

In the 28 days her totals were:

Groceries £136.70
Public transport £122.60
Workday lunches £85.19
Other eating out £136.60
Tea and coffee £47.50
Alcohol £113.02
Clothes £191.48
Holiday £213.87

Coffee is the lowest discretionary total, so why consider the impact of cutting this out in isolation when the article considers cutting others as well?

Obviously she is not going to eliminate groceries entirely, though she could perhaps make some savings. Similarly she possibly could save some money on clothes and holiday. She could obviously feasibly save a lot more by reducing workday lunches, eating out and alcohol than on reducing coffee. If she saved money in these areas it would be more like £5k per year, or perhaps £10k if she tried to save as much as possible.

And it won't necessarily take 21-42 years to save for the deposit. That assumes zero investment return (i.e. no stock market return, no HTB-ISA, etc.), no pay rise. No movement in house prices. Maybe she saves for 5 years and then finds London prices have fallen from 350k to 250k. Also people keep arguing rents will fall as the best tenants buy, people keep leaving London and landlords are desperate to avoid voids...

Edited by Kosmin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2
HOLA443
On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:17 AM, HouseSharingIsMyLifeNow said:

The thing about the advice to save every little "surplus" money you have to one day put into overpriced property is that it doesn't go into the rest of the economy, and pretty soon you would have articles about how young people aren't contributing to the wider economy by supporting coffee shops and nightlife and so on, which would cause constriction of the economy in many sectors and make a recession more likely. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Economies don't only rely on consumption but saving.

Young people can spend a large chunk of their income on cafes, flight, hotels, restaurants etc. Or they can save it for future expenditures. If entrepreneurs can anticipate this future expenditure then all is well. They close cafes and these people are employed building houses, working in care homes, as nurses etc. instead. Frankly this probably should happen and probably will happen, whether it's the result of market processes or government intervention.

In short the economy will do just fine if people stop buying and start saving. People don't just save; they save up for something. Also people don't make these decisions en masse - there are always some people just starting to save and others just start their spending spree after saving. Unless there is simply no idea what people are saving for, economic activity will aim to meet the future demands instead of the immediate ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3
HOLA444
14 hours ago, Fence said:

Seriously, avocado toast sounds very yummy.  Ideal for lunch.  Is it really only for the "young" or can we all join in and got any good recipes?  I shall eat it as a mark of inter-generational solidarity against our soulless wannabe masters!  

It's good, but don't get too used to it - I hear Rupert Murdoch is planning on using the billions from selling large parts of his media empire to corner a global monopoly in coffee bean and avocado trade!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4
HOLA445
41 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

In short the economy will do just fine if people stop buying and start saving. People don't just save; they save up for something. Also people don't make these decisions en masse - there are always some people just starting to save and others just start their spending spree after saving. Unless there is simply no idea what people are saving for, economic activity will aim to meet the future demands instead of the immediate ones.

When everything is sensible and balanced, very true. But what happens when suddenly people who were saving start borrowing a lot? Big boost right now, hoorah, aren't we doing great, then tied in to debt. How to get out of that without a corresponding hole to match the boost?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5
HOLA446
3 hours ago, Barnsey said:

I do get the funny side of avocado toast for boomers, but the truth is that young people are making many healthy eating decisions and getting torn to shreds for it. My other half often starts the day with avocado toast at home, ingredients from Aldi.

Yet we don't dare bring up the drinking "at every opportunity, including work lunch breaks" culture of the 70's/80's oh no, because alcohol cost pence back then, so a few a day didn't hurt. To say I'm a little jealous of the carefree nature of working life back then, told by my boomer colleagues about to retire on their full salary pensions vs 30 more years for me (at least) of ever stricter rules and big brother pressures, a rubbish pension if any at the end, is quite an understatement. 

I don't knock anything that's healthy - even 'your other halfs avocado'. Meat and 2 veg plus 2 or 3 hours on your feet was a great combo in the 70's with those lean UK citizens. It was the pizza, burger and take aways and the sugar invasion which has caused the issues. 

I missed the drinking though because mid 70's I was six years old....there may be a little stereotyping (other than he complusory smacking the secretary's 4rse when she us stretched over the desk) but I guess that's the point on both sides it's easier to generalise because we all know there is some pragmatism in both camps and this debate is about the issues not the good stuff we hope to see and inspire ourselves. 

For me the issue in the OP is boomers believe being 'a bit frugal' will sort a millenniums housing issues and that shows lack of knowledge and empathy.

We could all be frugal and save some money...my latest exchange of car (company BMW x3 swapped for a 15 year old £200 jazz) saves me £13k a year. But the key is to understand why not everyone can do this eg sales rep or someone TRULY dependant on a car. And also why it does solve daft house prices and £40k student debt  

You are right though...housing, pensions,student debt etc are game changers in the hopes and dreams of a generation.  It needs to change but I am not entirely convinced that this hasn't always been the plan. Human batteries....producing the energy (tax) to fund the powers that be. 

Build more houses on some countryside....that should help. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6
HOLA447
15 hours ago, Fence said:

Seriously, avocado toast sounds very yummy.  Ideal for lunch.  Is it really only for the "young" or can we all join in and got any good recipes?  I shall eat it as a mark of inter-generational solidarity against our soulless wannabe masters!  

In the spirit of solidarity with our younger readers, I tried making avocado toast for lunch today. Mashed it up with some lime juice and a sprinkle of dried red chili.

Very nice, can see why they're sacrificing their housing needs for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7
HOLA448
8
HOLA449
22 minutes ago, Craig_ said:

In the spirit of solidarity with our younger readers, I tried making avocado toast for lunch today. Mashed it up with some lime juice and a sprinkle of dried red chili.

Very nice, can see why they're sacrificing their housing needs for it.

Making it yourself? How old fashioned. You're not doing it properly - you need to go to a hipster cafe and pay a tenner for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9
HOLA4410
29 minutes ago, RentingForever said:

Making it yourself? How old fashioned. You're not doing it properly - you need to go to a hipster cafe and pay a tenner for it.

Avocado, lime and a pack of bagels for about £1.40 from Aldi. Cup of manky coffee from the work machine. Already got a beard.

Job done!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10
HOLA4411
1 hour ago, Kosmin said:

Economies don't only rely on consumption but saving.

Young people can spend a large chunk of their income on cafes, flight, hotels, restaurants etc. Or they can save it for future expenditures. If entrepreneurs can anticipate this future expenditure then all is well. They close cafes and these people are employed building houses, working in care homes, as nurses etc. instead. Frankly this probably should happen and probably will happen, whether it's the result of market processes or government intervention.

In short the economy will do just fine if people stop buying and start saving. People don't just save; they save up for something. Also people don't make these decisions en masse - there are always some people just starting to save and others just start their spending spree after saving. Unless there is simply no idea what people are saving for, economic activity will aim to meet the future demands instead of the immediate ones.

...good post, instant gratification or delayed gratification......people will save for something worth saving for, where savings are not eroded by high inflation...... they can still drink coffee, eat nice food, stay in nice places (a plane fare is cheaper than a train fare) but do it differently, spending less, getting more.... :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11
HOLA4412
1 hour ago, Craig_ said:

In the spirit of solidarity with our younger readers, I tried making avocado toast for lunch today. Mashed it up with some lime juice and a sprinkle of dried red chili.

Very nice, can see why they're sacrificing their housing needs for it.

Lovely.  Yes, I was thinking of it with a spot of chilli and juice (yes lime sounds best).  I was also thinking of that posh slim pale French toast rather than your average British doorstopper.  No seasoning needed?  Probably washed down with just some plain (maybe lightly sparkling) water so as not to smother the delicate flavours.  Still working out how to dress the plate.  Have until Friday - my next visit to Aldi where they have those cheap "ripen at home" avocados.  The weather's cold but dry and sunny today so would quite enjoy eating it outside while taking in the view.  Cross fingers.

Edited by Fence
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12
HOLA4413
13
HOLA4414
1 hour ago, Craig_ said:

Avocado, lime and a pack of bagels for about £1.40 from Aldi. Cup of manky coffee from the work machine. Already got a beard.

Job done!

Oh, do I need a beard as well?  Funny, I was already thinking about it as I've never had one and time's running out.  Is there a standard I should be following?  Pictures?  I wouldn't want to look like some shabby imposter.  I'm off to a concert Saturday where  the artist could just about be young enough to be my daughter so shame I won't have one in time.  I'll have a look though at the presumably mainly Millennial audience for inspiration. 

Edited by Fence
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14
HOLA4415
6 hours ago, Pop321 said:

Feels as though there is a 'divide and conquer' to all this. Those boomers never had many things we take for granted today...check out the housing conditions of the early 70's. Phones, coffees and even a modest night out represent an excess many then never knew. HOWEVER...the boomers then fail to see the things they took for granted (affordable home ownership, pensions, job security, free university) are now unattainable luxuries...and saving a few grand a year will not make up for that. So hope and incentive are removed 

Phones? Assume you mean mobile phone - I don't feel I'm missing anything at all by not having one, I don't like coffee, and a decent night out for me is down the local (which was hardly rare in the 70s although I suspect the beer is much better now). These "things they take for granted now" really are pretty minor and unimportant compared to the others you mention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15
HOLA4416
12 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Phones? Assume you mean mobile phone - I don't feel I'm missing anything at all by not having one, I don't like coffee, and a decent night out for me is down the local (which was hardly rare in the 70s although I suspect the beer is much better now). These "things they take for granted now" really are pretty minor and unimportant compared to the others you mention.

Anyone check their emails once a week?;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16
HOLA4417
17
HOLA4418
18
HOLA4419
17 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

Today's young people are possibly amongst the most brain washed ever - constantly supporting things that are contrary to their interests. The Guardian being one of them!

No wonder the powers that be were so keen for 50 per cent to go to university for their programming.

Have you ever challenged them by stating that it's reading newspapers including the guardian that normalises the reduction in living standards. 

When I've done it, I get a response along the lines of, "wow, do you really think I can't think for myself?". Turns out the media is so good they have convinced people to accept the lower living standards and further that that think they have free will in controlling their future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19
HOLA4420
20
HOLA4421
20 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

Today's young people are possibly amongst the most brain washed ever - constantly supporting things that are contrary to their interests. The Guardian being one of them!

Yeah, sure. Who buys propaganda pamphlets newspapers? Old people. Who watches TV propaganda news? Old people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21
HOLA4422
11 hours ago, Pop321 said:

Those boomers never had many things we take for granted today...check out the housing conditions of the early 70's. Phones, coffees and even a modest night out represent an excess many then never knew.

If going out for a drink was an impossible luxury in the 70s why were there so many more pubs around then than there are now?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22
HOLA4423
7 hours ago, Kosmin said:

In the 28 days her totals were:

Groceries £136.70
Public transport £122.60
Workday lunches £85.19
Other eating out £136.60
Tea and coffee £47.50
Alcohol £113.02
Clothes £191.48
Holiday £213.87

Coffee is the lowest discretionary total, so why consider the impact of cutting this out in isolation when the article considers cutting others as well?

Obviously she is not going to eliminate groceries entirely, though she could perhaps make some savings. Similarly she possibly could save some money on clothes and holiday. She could obviously feasibly save a lot more by reducing workday lunches, eating out and alcohol than on reducing coffee. If she saved money in these areas it would be more like £5k per year, or perhaps £10k if she tried to save as much as possible.

And it won't necessarily take 21-42 years to save for the deposit. That assumes zero investment return (i.e. no stock market return, no HTB-ISA, etc.), no pay rise. No movement in house prices. Maybe she saves for 5 years and then finds London prices have fallen from 350k to 250k. Also people keep arguing rents will fall as the best tenants buy, people keep leaving London and landlords are desperate to avoid voids...

 

I was referencing the headline.

So if she lived like a monk, never went out for meals, and never went on holiday she might be able to save the £210k deposit she needs for that £350k flat in 40 years time - 20 if she really knuckles down even on your figures. Problem is by then she will probably need a £1m deposit - so she will never be able to buy.

She could move up north - but there probably isnt much demand for Guardian journos on £35k up there! And she wouldn't be able to buy avocado toast!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23
HOLA4424
17 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

If going out for a drink was an impossible luxury in the 70s why were there so many more pubs around then than there are now?

Because they were cheap.

Wasn't defending a boomer position...highlighting differences in THEIR views to millenniums. Werherspoons equivalent 70's pubs not quite the same as cocktail bars and £50 on a night out. It's not a judgement, it's far from 'everyone'....it's the stereotype.

Divide a conquer is working nicely...keeps those in power where they want to be?

I get these differences...my parents weren't boomers (late 80's now)...the only boomers I know are currently inheriting vast amounts and wondering why their 35 year old kids aren't on the housing ladder, so because those kids haven't saved for themselves and wasted money (in their eyes) the boomer is 'spoiling themselves' with Holidays and cars. You couldn't make it up.

But I assume my experience is isolated and I happily tell them what I think. I try not to judge every boomer with my poor experience. 

At 49 I tell them I already have arrangement that MY inheritance goes straight to my kids - ie my parents grandchildren. Not an act of generosity just common sense and to help them along before it's too late. 

I try to understand the boomer experience. Not all elements were easy...power cuts, super inflation, bad teeth and flares. 

I also try to understand the millennium issues. I wish they would rebel more...throw stones at the Houses of Parliament instead of queuing up for university places to work in office jobs for 40/50 years and then die. It not about the money...and until the world stops chasing the money things will carry on as is. Again I generalise and there are some great exceptions but we need a more vocal more interested generations.

X FACTOR, has done its job...numb the mind of the worker bee 'oh that's sad, he dad left the family when she was young...hope she wins' .

'Strictly' to take care of the boomers to ensure they don't ask questions about the impact of housing on their young 'oh...her out of Eastenders is a good dancer' 

We all know the young have been shafted....so try fluff up the actions and start the revolution. Imagine if no one enrolled for Uni next year except maybe the top 5% or no boomer bought wethers originals for a week. And no one bought a house next year...unless it was 4 times average local income  

I imagine my revolution consensus would evaporate on contact with air....but it's nice to think it might not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24
HOLA4425
27 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

 

I was referencing the headline.

Yet you read the article, so you know the headline is misleading. The first line says it's not an option for many ("For many young people, cutting back on little luxuries will not make property ownership a reality." I think she should have written "most") but she's looking at the extent to which it could be for her.

28 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

So if she lived like a monk, never went out for meals, and never went on holiday she might be able to save the £210k deposit she needs for that £350k flat in 40 years time - 20 if she really knuckles down even on your figures.

No.

1) She wouldn't get 0% return. Surely she will get HTB or lifetime ISA, so even if she makes the highly questionable decision to save for the long term 100% in cash, she will get some return on that. Several banks offer 5% or so on regular saver deals (where you can contribute 250 per month). So even with ultra-low interest rates, you can get a small return on your cash.

But if she expects to take 10-20 years to save a deposit, she should allocate a lot to equities. That gives a much higher return and is low risk over 10+ years.

2) Just because she thinks she needs 210k now, she won't necessarily need that much. Even a moderate fall of 30% would halve the amount of deposit required to 105k.

3) She might need half again if she buys with a partner (obviously could be more or less depending on the wealth and income of the partner).

49 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

in 40 years time - 20 if she really knuckles down even on your figures. Problem is by then she will probably need a £1m deposit - so she will never be able to buy.

That would be approximately a tripling of prices (approximately 6% per year for 20 years or 3% per year for 40 years). That's basically not possible unless wages are growing at that rate. If wages don't grow and house prices triple then we're looking at rental yields going from sub 5% to sub 1% (that would mean all leveraged landlords are long since gone - but somehow the landlord fire sale didn't put a dent in HPI - but even outright owner landlords are losing money. Are they still holding on for the next tripling?). This clearly won't happen. If you are modelling prices growing at 3-6% per year in line with wages, then you have to take that into account with modelling her saving.

55 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

She could move up north - but there probably isnt much demand for Guardian journos on £35k up there!

If the expected house price falls do not materialise and she does not have a partner to share costs with, she has the option of buying something in a cheaper area if she has some savings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information