Housing crisis could push young voters to extremes, says former Whitehall chief

[winkie]

19 hours ago, sPinwheel said:

Meh, as a young person, owning a home is overrated.

....yes, only when have protected and fair priced rents, a place to feel secure long-term with a growing  family.....for many renting would be a viable option if only it was viable.....a home that is more vulnerable than a job or benefits that pays the unregulated rent and insecurity of a short-term tenure.

[sPinwheel]

4 minutes ago, winkie said:

....yes, only when have protected and fair priced rents, a place to feel secure long-term with a growing  family...

Meh, I think that issue is overblown. I've rented for such a long time and I was never evicted, I was always the one to decide to move on. Landlords seem to like regular payments and I always paid rent on time. 

Rents haven't exploded as much as house prices.

However if constantly getting evicted is a problem then I must have been lucky. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by sPinwheel

[PopGun]

19 hours ago, LittlePig said:

As a young(ish) person I don't want to own a house. I just want a secure, protected tenancy that is affordable on a average/below-average wage.

Young people should have an affordable choice of either.

[LittlePig]

6 minutes ago, PopGun said:

Young people should have an affordable choice of either.

I take home ownership to be a form of tenancy. Life is not a permanent arrangement for anyone yet. It is good to remember that.

[Thorn]

36 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

Meh, I think that issue is overblown. I've rented for such a long time and I was never evicted, I was always the one to decide to move on. Landlords seem to like regular payments and I always paid rent on time. 

Rents haven't exploded as much as house prices.

However if constantly getting evicted is a problem then I must have been lucky. 

It is and you were.

[winkie]

39 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

Meh, I think that issue is overblown. I've rented for such a long time and I was never evicted, I was always the one to decide to move on. Landlords seem to like regular payments and I always paid rent on time. 

Rents haven't exploded as much as house prices.

However if constantly getting evicted is a problem then I must have been lucky. 

Two things....firstly, rents asked and wages earned are or should be related.....secondly, rents paid and mortgage interest rates paid should be related, but they are not......

 

Add another......security of tenure of somebody who pays their mortgage on time should be related to somebody who pays their rent on time, should be related but it is not.

 

[sPinwheel]

2 hours ago, winkie said:

...firstly, rents asked and wages earned are or should be related.....

I didn't say they were. There is no way rents have gone up at the same rate as house prices, which is what I actually said.

[winkie]

17 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

I didn't say they were. There is no way rents have gone up at the same rate as house prices, which is what I actually said.

You are confused my friend.......monthly income from rents and monthly outgoings for mortgage.....and monthly income from wages and monthly outgoings for rent, has nothing to do or little relevance to capital growth.....

[zilly]

Certainly a strange country we live in when the social democracy of Jeremy Corbyn is regarded as 'extreme'.

The 'extreme' political system is the one we've had for the last four decades, which has handed all the wealth over to (mostly already wealthy) private corporate stockholders, handed our energy security over to foreigners,  saturated society in debt, devastated the manufacturing base which made us the power we once were and turned the country into a decadent playground geared to the desires of financial speculators rather than the needs of its larger populace.

It's strange how - just like the USA - people in the UK have been brainwashed by neoliberal propaganda into believing that it's a binary proposition - naked greed and self-interest (the system we have even though it's laughably been rebranded as 'aspiration'), or 'communism' (ie in reality social democratic policies).

Bizarre times indeed.

Edited December 29, 2017 by zilly

[dougless]

24 minutes ago, zilly said:

Certainly a strange country we live in when the social democracy of Jeremy Corbyn is regarded as 'extreme'.

The 'extreme' political system is the one we've had for the last four decades, which has handed all the wealth over to (mostly already wealthy) private corporate stockholders, handed our energy security over to foreigners,  saturated society in debt, devastated the manufacturing base which made us the power we once were and turned the country into a decadent playground geared to the desires of financial speculators rather than the needs of its larger populace.

It's strange how - just like the USA - people in the UK have been brainwashed by neoliberal propaganda into believing that it's a binary proposition - naked greed and self-interest (the system we have even though it's laughably been rebranded as 'aspiration'), or 'communism' (ie in reality social democratic policies).

Bizarre times indeed.

Spot on.

[BorrowToLeech]

On 12/27/2017 at 7:14 PM, sPinwheel said:

Meh, as a young person, owning a home is overrated.

The main perceived drawbacks to owning a home - cost and inflexibility - only exist because landlords bid up the cost of houses (and have done for centuries, even before the existence of BTL).

The difficulties of buying, selling and moving are just a subset of the many economic frictions that are imposed upon the economy by the cumulative effect of these feudal landlords.  

Cars are also expensive. Younger poorer people didn’t used to rent, they used to own bangers.  Houses would be more-or-less the same. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by BuyToLeech

[Fence]

1 hour ago, zilly said:

people in the UK have been brainwashed by neoliberal propaganda

I admit I was, what with the problems in the 1970s and the shiny new Thatcherism.  But like all things, should have ignored the voice and watched the hands.

Adam Curtis, "The Mayfair Set" for a brilliant retrospective.  Several episodes, the latter ones being more about the 1970-80s political economy.  And his scary "Hypernormalisation" film about today.  Also many more.  All on Youtube, etc.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Fence

[MarkG]

20 hours ago, zilly said:

Certainly a strange country we live in when the social democracy of Jeremy Corbyn is regarded as 'extreme'.

Some of us remember the 70s.

Besides which, Corbyn is just another lefty pushing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems. He has no more idea of how to deal with a world of robots, AI and local manufacturing than any other major politician in the UK. They're all utterly worthless for the post-industrial world we're racing into.

[regprentice]

On 27/12/2017 at 7:14 PM, sPinwheel said:

Meh, as a young person, owning a home is overrated.

I've 41, i've 2 years left on my mortgage and then, while this isn't my 'dream forever home', there will be a distinct positive to not having rent or a mortgage going out each month for the next 40 years or so.

That said ive had to move to an Edinburgh commuting town - moving 125 miles from my family (aberdeen) and 350 miles from my wifes family (oxford) to live somewhere that had a decent balance of jobs and reasonably priced housing. My wife desperately wants to move to Oxford but my house is currently worth £115k - that wouldnt cover 1/3rd of a similar house in Oxford.

I'd also like my two kids (4,7) to have the choice of reasonably priced housing so they can move out around uni age, instead of still living at home at the age of 30+.

[Maynardgravy]

2 hours ago, MarkG said:

Some of us remember the 70s.

Besides which, Corbyn is just another lefty pushing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems. He has no more idea of how to deal with a world of robots, AI and local manufacturing than any other major politician in the UK. They're all utterly worthless for the post-industrial world we're racing into.

There's some truth in this. However, if the only alternative to an 18th century ideology (which is basically an extension of feudalism) is a 19th century solution, it will seem pretty modern.

[Dorkins]

2 hours ago, MarkG said:

Some of us remember the 70s.

Besides which, Corbyn is just another lefty pushing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems. He has no more idea of how to deal with a world of robots, AI and local manufacturing than any other major politician in the UK. They're all utterly worthless for the post-industrial world we're racing into.

Er, the 19th century was full of human labour being replaced by machinery.

[Futuroid]

Talking about being pushed to extreme, did any of you see that the Tories have dropped not one but two of their key housing pledges:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-housing-policy-starter-homes-right-to-buy-housing-association-sajid-javid-tories-a8119266.html

"Ministers had promised to build 200,000 of them by 2020 but The Independent revealed last month that not a single Starter Home has yet been built. This led to officials admitting the policy remained an “ambition” – but have now removed all mention of it from DCLG’s housing objectives."

The Help to Buy bit is probably for the best, but 200,000 new homes by 2020 would have helped to put a bit of pressure on the market.

Oh well... everyone knew it was flimflam to fool the odd soft brained young Tory voter anyway.

[zilly]

8 hours ago, MarkG said:

Some of us remember the 70s.

Besides which, Corbyn is just another lefty pushing 19th century solutions to 21st century problems. He has no more idea of how to deal with a world of robots, AI and local manufacturing than any other major politician in the UK. They're all utterly worthless for the post-industrial world we're racing into.

I didn't say he had the solutions, but merely wished to highlight the strange worlkd of 'there is no other choice' propaganda people of the UK (and USA) are subjected to in the right-wing populist press - which takes the form of screeching 'socialist' and 'communist' at anyone basically who dares to question the status quo which works very nicely for the likes of those who, for example, own those same media outlets (ie those who push the agenda that tax cuts for wealthy individuals and corporations will solve our problems, basically).

However I will say things seem to be working out pretty damn well for those 'lefties' in China as they go about the business of taking over the world off the back of the manufacturing of consumer goods we gleefully offshored to them.

And those 'lefties' in Norway are also the wealthiest per capita on the planet due to the fact that - unlike us - they kept over 80% of the oil for the commons and used that money to build a chunky sovereign wealth fund.

No strikes at Statoil, their state-owned oil company either! Gasp! That's an impossibility according to neoliberal dogma - state ownership instantly means a return to the early 70s, does it not?!!!

So that would lead me to empirically conclude that not all 'leftie' solutions are non-applicable in the 21st century.

(PS edit to add I'm not a 'leftie' as I don't believe in bipartisan 'wing' politics; I'm a utilitarian, who consequently believes that the rational course of action is the one that benefits the most people. This stands in diametric opposition at the moment to the way the country is run, and whom it is run for - which most certainly is not the majority).

Edited December 30, 2017 by zilly
Clarification

[debtlessmanc]

3 hours ago, zilly said:

I didn't say he had the solutions, but merely wished to highlight the strange worlkd of 'there is no other choice' propaganda people of the UK (and USA) are subjected to in the right-wing populist press - which takes the form of screeching 'socialist' and 'communist' at anyone basically who dares to question the status quo which works very nicely for the likes of those who, for example, own those same media outlets (ie those who push the agenda that tax cuts for wealthy individuals and corporations will solve our problems, basically).

However I will say things seem to be working out pretty damn well for those 'lefties' in China as they go about the business of taking over the world off the back of the manufacturing of consumer goods we gleefully offshored to them.

And those 'lefties' in Norway are also the wealthiest per capita on the planet due to the fact that - unlike us - they kept over 80% of the oil for the commons and used that money to build a chunky sovereign wealth fund.

No strikes at Statoil, their state-owned oil company either! Gasp! That's an impossibility according to neoliberal dogma - state ownership instantly means a return to the early 70s, does it not?!!!

So that would lead me to empirically conclude that not all 'leftie' solutions are non-applicable in the 21st century.

(PS edit to add I'm not a 'leftie' as I don't believe in bipartisan 'wing' politics; I'm a utilitarian, who consequently believes that the rational course of action is the one that benefits the most people. This stands in diametric opposition at the moment to the way the country is run, and whom it is run for - which most certainly is not the majority).

oh yes sovereign wealth funds, those things that tiny countries lie Qatar or Norway have as they have a petrochemical bonanza that dwarfs their own industrial output. A manufacturing country (as the uk at least used to be) should use such bonanzas to invest in the future, okay we didnt really, but major countires should have no need of a sovereign investment fund so that argument is dead. Norway is "lefty" in the same way as the quaker movement was. The UK is not full of Quakers (any longer at least) and the left are just a bunch of thieves very similar to the tories.

[LittlePig]

43 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

oh yes sovereign wealth funds, those things that tiny countries lie Qatar or Norway have as they have a petrochemical bonanza that dwarfs their own industrial output. A manufacturing country (as the uk at least used to be) should use such bonanzas to invest in the future, okay we didnt really, but major countires should have no need of a sovereign investment fund so that argument is dead. Norway is "lefty" in the same way as the quaker movement was. The UK is not full of Quakers (any longer at least) and the left are just a bunch of thieves very similar to the tories.

I have a game for you to play http://ncase.me/trust/

It appears some segments of western society are trusting each other and working together, or none of us would be on this forum...

[chronyx]

8 minutes ago, LittlePig said:

I have a game for you to play http://ncase.me/trust/

It appears some segments of western society are trusting each other and working together, or none of us would be on this forum...

And when the trust is gone?

Western society being trust based isn't some sort of revelation   in fact with out trust you don't have a society you just have various close-knit tribes. (   )

 

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, LittlePig said:

I have a game for you to play http://ncase.me/trust/

It appears some segments of western society are trusting each other and working together, or none of us would be on this forum...

I have read about game theory, not sure how this relates to sovereign investment funds though?

[MarkG]

13 hours ago, zilly said:

However I will say things seem to be working out pretty damn well for those 'lefties' in China as they go about the business of taking over the world off the back of the manufacturing of consumer goods we gleefully offshored to them.

The Chinese are a low-trust society who mostly don't give a crap about each other, and rarely give a crap about anyone who isn't Chinese. They're quite happy to treat their people as cheap slaves to Western business in order to get the factories to move there, and push crap like 'Global Warming' that makes business far too expensive and difficult in the West, thereby encouraging them to move there.

Nor do they care about robots taking over the jobs, because the 1%-ers plan to be far from China by the time that happens.

If you think that's a good plan for Britain's future... well, you probably deserve what you get.

Edited December 31, 2017 by MarkG

[Futuroid]

5 hours ago, MarkG said:

and push crap like 'Global Warming' that makes business far too expensive and difficult in the West, thereby encouraging them to move there.

You've lost me - where is the evidence* that Climate Change is a plot "pushed" by the Chinese? Also, how do some countries (e.g. Germany) manage to retain a large amount of heavy industry locally AND comply with environmental legislation? 

* = the rantings of failed real estate investor Donald J Trump do not count as evidence.

[macca13]

On 30/12/2017 at 10:07 AM, Futuroid said:

Tories have dropped not one but two of their key housing pledges:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-housing-policy-starter-homes-right-to-buy-housing-association-sajid-javid-tories-a8119266.html

"Ministers had promised to build 200,000 of them by 2020 but The Independent revealed last month that not a single Starter Home has yet been built. This led to officials admitting the policy remained an “ambition” – but have now removed all mention of it from DCLG’s housing objectives."

Oh well... everyone knew it was flimflam to fool the odd soft brained young Tory voter anyway.

They really are scumbags.. Do you think they have a plan? Maybe the plan is to push voters to Labour just before the economy fails whilst extracting as much money from the economy as they can to stuff in their pockets. The end is near..