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gruffydd

Tourism boom and house prices - Wales

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I am from Wales and have noticed that over the last 3 years tourism has really taken off - and it seems ever more housing is being sucked into holiday letting. 

I think it is seen as an emerging destination (ie hasn't met its full potential but getting there) unlike places like Ireland which are saturated with tourists, the numbers are relatively low - and it is very unspoilt (20% of the country is National Park). 

But over the last 3 years there seems to have been a major shift - there are many more very wealthy tourists in the places I know - flash cars - more flash hotels opening up and so on - all the usual signs. 

I was down at a family house last month - the depths of winter - Indian, Chinese, Irish (Dubliners mainly) tourists wandering past - terrible weather but they kept on coming - never seen that before!

I suspect it has something to do with social media and photos - Wales definitely is one of the most visually stunning places I know (and I've lived all over Britain, Ireland and Europe - and traveled widely).

What worries me though is the impact on house prices -  in places like Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire, Ceredigon, Gwynedd, some of the rural house prices are already eye watering vis-a-vis the local economies, and I suspect the new tourism boom will hold prices where they are at the very least. 

It is more the international dimension that worries me most of all - the Chinese have arrived - the 5 star hotels are arriving - and the housing market will respond in kind as the new tourists demand luxury accommodation - what are your thoughts on this? Is this happening in other parts of the UK?

Edited by gruffydd

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I've been noticing this for about the same time period in Anglesey and Gwynedd... as you say house prices are completely out of whack with the local economic productivity, employment prospects, wages, transport infrastructure etc.

In real terms property is just as unaffordable as London and the Home Counties when you compare local wages and local job opportunities to local house prices.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-38302652

 

When you look at other equally economically deprived areas i.e parts of the NE or NW England then Welsh house prices are around double these other comparable areas... it can only be down to people buying holiday homes and holiday lets.

 

There has been a huge drive in recent years to promote Wales as a tourist destination, my particular corner of Anglesey was a bit of a hidden gem up until around 5 or 6 years ago, popular with people who appreciated the landscape, nature and tranquillity that could be found here... Then NRW started promoting it as a ''fun and exciting destination'' and the area has featured on numerous TV programmes... 

My local beach now gets over 250,000 tourists a year, mostly the ''bucket and spade brigade'' bringing with them traffic jams, litter and bags of dog shit strewn everywhere... but no discernible benefit to the local economy. 

Edited by nome

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This thread belongs in the Regional section, next to Belgium.

Wales is crop and they don't like you.  Even start speaking funny when you walk in a pub.  Best to stay well away. 

Oh, and Proffy says they've done the deals and going to stick solar panels all over the hills.  Might be the odd job for us there if I can be farced.

We 'ad a Russian lad working with us.  Says he's off to walk the Welsh mountains.  Comes back Monday and we all ask how it was.  "What mountains" he says, and walks off. 

Nuff said.

Edited by Fence

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1 hour ago, Fence said:

thread belongs in the Regional section

The issue described applies just as well to many small communities around the country.  Pretty much anywhere that looks 'nice', or 'olde worlde' - maybe has a coastline, mountain or lake nearby.  I see the same in this village - where, maybe 60% of the old centre is holiday homes and prices are stratospheric compared to the meagre employment prospects round here.
It's a disaster waiting to happen, if there's ever a crash.  Most wouldn't sell the house they live in.  But the But n' Ben in the countryshire?  If prices are heading South, there could be a stampede.

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9 minutes ago, Bricks n' mortar said:

.......Most wouldn't sell the house they live in.  But the But n' Ben in the countryshire?  If prices are heading South, there could be a stampede.

"But n'Ben"'s a new one.  Got a bit of gen?  Are you saying they'll leave their gaffs down south and stampede out or vicey versy?  

I heard of this county once called "heartbreak county" 'cause of all the good lifers that came, got real, and fekked off back home, tails between legs. 

To be fair though, me mates in the trades love 'em.

Edited by Fence

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I was meaning they could all sell up their holiday homes at once.  I believe most think of them as an 'investment' that has a fringe benefit of occasional holiday residence.  Once the 'investment' is heading south...

Although, I suppose if things got really hairy in the cities, and I mean like no food, utilities, or transport - we may see an influx round here.  Don't fancy a bunch of stockbrokers for neighbours in a survival situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_and_ben

 

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Holiday home is the reason why I cropped up on this site - Im from the 'Yorkshire coast'

If anyone has made a case of tourism in the UK being economically useful to the regions then Ive yet to see it. In fact, all the economic/social deprivation studies correlates to tourism causing economic and social fkup. No, its not due to the UK holiday regions being in far away places - its down to the stultifying effect of UK tourism.

UK mass tourism died sometime around 1975.

Since then they only decent, money making UK tourism plays have been London breaks, CentreParcs, day trips to theme parks. Thats it.

The reason why UK tourist restots = social deprivation si due to to all the bandB and toursim vested interested parties getting o nthe coucil and blocking any/diverting any non tourism business. Not directly, but all the council time is spent discussing crap to to with BandB and the like. The big one for me at the moment, is the introctuction of ParkandRide which came bundled with with parkign restricvtions - which the BandB owners were allowed scratch cards for.

Then theres the two curses - second homes, which are not that many. And the worse- holiday lets.

Second home owners need to be charged 2 x council tax. Its that simple. There should be no relief for them. Im not too bothered by 2nd home owners but they need to pay 2x c tax.

Holday lets. Now these I fuxxing hate and despise. Imagine living next to a small 2-3 bed room seaside cottage. No imagine its advertised as 'Old sea farers cottage - sleeps 4' And you think, WTF, palce is tiny. Except 8 people turn up and cram into the cottage. And rather than parkign for one car, 3 cars turn up. And start parkign everywhere.  And get pissed. And fall out. And argue outside. Now repeat that 8-12 times over june->September. The Xmas weekend, which is when they get really drunk and fuxxed up.

And then they dumped mountains of rubbish. Then you find that rather than paying council tax they get small business relief, so rather than pay some tax they pay fux all.

Holiday lets should be ratable - 6-8k/eayr, paid to the LA and no relief at all.

Gidiot made some tweaks to the number of weeks palces have to be let. The new limit will push 75% of holiday lets into no tax relief. Then, to get the letting weeks, they'll have to drive the prices down.

Holiday rentals are total stunc.

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1 hour ago, Bricks n' mortar said:

I was meaning they could all sell up their holiday homes at once.  I believe most think of them as an 'investment' that has a fringe benefit of occasional holiday residence.  Once the 'investment' is heading south...

Although, I suppose if things got really hairy in the cities, and I mean like no food, utilities, or transport - we may see an influx round here.  Don't fancy a bunch of stockbrokers for neighbours in a survival situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_and_ben

 

Nice link thanks.  Happy days if they all sold up.

Now I've done a bit of the old security in me time and the word is towns are best when it gets bad given food supply, medical, etc.  That's the economics.  Country folk'll be left for themselves.  Fine by me.

Bit like diesel cars are crop as all diesel will be used for the trucks.  I could go on but I had a very hairy exit interview.

Edited by Fence

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

.....And you think, WTF, palce is tiny. Except 8 people turn up and cram into the cottage. And rather than parkign for one car, 3 cars turn up. And start parkign everywhere.  And get pissed. And fall out. And argue outside. Now repeat that 8-12 times over june->September. The Xmas weekend, which is when they get really drunk and fuxxed up........

That son is a brilliant glimpse into the reality.  Simply brilliant.

Edited by Fence

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Just now, Fence said:

That son is a brilliant glimpse into the reality.  Simply brilliant.

(Im not seeing strike-out as a font/style choice)

Its hell, it really is.

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Holday lets. Now these I fuxxing hate

Oh oh, penny just dropped.  May be about to happen up the road. I was all for them doing the place up as a home, then this Porche turns up from London.  Best me wife keeps the keys to the JCB, not to make light of the pits of your situation.

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On 15/12/2017 at 7:51 AM, Fence said:

This thread belongs in the Regional section, next to Belgium.

Wales is crop and they don't like you.  Even start speaking funny when you walk in a pub.  Best to stay well away. 

Oh, and Proffy says they've done the deals and going to stick solar panels all over the hills.  Might be the odd job for us there if I can be farced.

We 'ad a Russian lad working with us.  Says he's off to walk the Welsh mountains.  Comes back Monday and we all ask how it was.  "What mountains" he says, and walks off. 

Nuff said.

not true atall  - the place is very welcoming on the whole - having lived all over Britain and Ireland I'd argue the countryside is spectacular beyond words, if you know where to look - beats most places other than the W coast of Scotland. 

A complicated place for sure - I don't get the sense our neighbours quite understand the complexities - if Wales doesn't have mountains then where does? Did he go to the Gower or something lol? 

And that's the problem really - the world's rich tourists have discovered the place and I'm pretty sure it's having an impact on housing.

I've just been on a wee tour of the place, dropping off in family all over the country - and it has changed - Brecon then Pembrokeshire then the Llyn... 

The Llyn - the Welsh speaking heartland - seems to be very popular with wealthy Londoners now (try Abersoch - blimey!) - the tourism profile in Pembrokeshire is far more international than I ever remember it, including huge numbers of Dubliners and a good number of Asians... noticed this kind of hotel - unimaginable even a decade ago: https://www.twryfelinhotel.com/ (that is developed by a Chinese architect I was told along with two other local hotels - top end) - Brecon also was in a tourism boom. 

The place is changing fast in tourism terms - from mass market to the super wealthy, or at least the wealthy - it's interesting to see. 

 

Edited by gruffydd

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I can't say I've really noticed it. I guess the likes of Aberdyfi, Aberaeron and even Llangrannog (when I went there to walk the coastal path) are packed full of wealthy English people over the Summer months. Places like Borth still seem to attract the more working class holiday maker.

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3 hours ago, gruffydd said:

not true atall  - the place is very welcoming on the whole - having lived all over Britain and Ireland I'd argue the countryside is spectacular beyond words, if you know where to look - beats most places other than the W coast of Scotland. 

A complicated place for sure - I don't get the sense our neighbours quite understand the complexities - if Wales doesn't have mountains then where does? Did he go to the Gower or something lol? 

And that's the problem really - the world's rich tourists have discovered the place and I'm pretty sure it's having an impact on housing.

I've just been on a wee tour of the place, dropping off in family all over the country - and it has changed - Brecon then Pembrokeshire then the Llyn... 

The Llyn - the Welsh speaking heartland - seems to be very popular with wealthy Londoners now (try Abersoch - blimey!) - the tourism profile in Pembrokeshire is far more international than I ever remember it, including huge numbers of Dubliners and a good number of Asians... noticed this kind of hotel - unimaginable even a decade ago: https://www.twryfelinhotel.com/ (that is developed by a Chinese architect I was told along with two other local hotels - top end) - Brecon also was in a tourism boom. 

The place is changing fast in tourism terms - from mass market to the super wealthy, or at least the wealthy - it's interesting to see. 

 

So, better than Newport then?

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15 minutes ago, spyguy said:

So, better than Newport then?

Sure is lol - If you head a few miles from Newport you end up in some pretty stunning places - Caerwent the Roman town and so on - the thing about Wales is people just don't get it - I was walking up a valley in August through ancient woodland with a volcanic mountain towering above me - not a soul in sight... not on the tourism route... but these places are suddenly being discovered for some reason - perhaps pics on social media?

Or do you mean Newport in Pembrokeshire? That illustrates my point perfectly - last time I went there I shared my hotel with a prince and his entourage from somewhere in the Middle East!

Edited by gruffydd

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1 hour ago, Castlevania said:

I can't say I've really noticed it. I guess the likes of Aberdyfi, Aberaeron and even Llangrannog (when I went there to walk the coastal path) are packed full of wealthy English people over the Summer months. Places like Borth still seem to attract the more working class holiday maker.

Mid Wales is a bit behind the curve in my opinion - not quite sure why. 

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16 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No, newport near bristol, where i have to do odd work for a client.

Yes, know it well - not nice but head up into the hinterland - Caerwent and Caerleon and so on - can be very nice indeed - Caerwent is always one of my stop-offs - remains of huge Roman settlement, Venta Silurum - you can walk along the walls. It is barely known - Caerleon also a big historic Roman centre with lots of Roman remains.. or go for a drive up the Wye Valley from Chepstow Castle... it can be utterly sublime (cider pubs too!). 

AP_2010_2822.jpg 

Edited by gruffydd

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3 minutes ago, gruffydd said:

Mid Wales is a bit behind the curve in my opinion - not quite sure why. 

Probably because it's miles away from everywhere, and with rubbish infrastructure to get in or out.

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2 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

Probably because it's miles away from everywhere, and with rubbish infrastructure to get in or out.

Yes no decent road in from the east! I sometimes stop off in Aberaeron and even in August Aberporth was quiet. A strange place.

I have noticed Cardigan becoming much more trendy - Fforest the driver of that I think  https://www.coldatnight.co.uk/ 

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On 15/12/2017 at 7:51 AM, Fence said:

This thread belongs in the Regional section, next to Belgium.

Wales is crop and they don't like you.  Even start speaking funny when you walk in a pub.  Best to stay well away. 

Oh, and Proffy says they've done the deals and going to stick solar panels all over the hills.  Might be the odd job for us there if I can be farced.

We 'ad a Russian lad working with us.  Says he's off to walk the Welsh mountains.  Comes back Monday and we all ask how it was.  "What mountains" he says, and walks off. 

Nuff said.

If you look at places like Cardigan - they are moving from total agricultural backwaters to super trendy destinations - 20 years ago Cardigan to me was market day and egg and chips in the cafe - now trendy delis, and so on - driven by the man who made Shoreditch trendy with his loft/warehouse conversions and so on. This is his company: https://www.coldatnight.co.uk/

Then you have an ad man in the same town who brings in the elite of the new economy, largely from the USA, down to events through the year, in the same town - and he's opened up a super trendy cult denim company. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42237426

Or how about a luxury castle done up by Chinese architect? https://www.rochcastle.com/

I am seeing this kind of stuff in places all over the rural west at the mo - never thought I'd see the day!

Edited by gruffydd

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So you pay hundreds of pounds a night to stay in a posh tent (but still a tent) in the middle of nowhere? 

Converting old castles into hotels kind of makes sense. There's something cool about the idea of staying in a castle. A bit more exciting than a Holiday Inn, and better than letting them fall to ruin.

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1 minute ago, Castlevania said:

So you pay hundreds of pounds a night to stay in a posh tent (but still a tent) in the middle of nowhere? 

Converting old castles into hotels kind of makes sense. There's something cool about the idea of staying in a castle. A bit more exciting than a Holiday Inn, and better than letting them fall to ruin.

I've never quite got glamping - but I guess if you spend your life stuck in an office in some city somewhere, it's just something different - Fforest pioneered geodomes and glamping - just as the owner, James Lynch, pioneered Shoreditch as a cool place - ahead of the curve. I went there once and it was pretty cool - a self service cottage bar and so on.  

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  • 407 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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