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At what point should someone's ability to procreate reduce their benefits entitlement?

I know a part time cleaner who had 6 kids with her late husband, married a TA who had 2 from previous marriage. Then they had 2 more. So 10 dependent kids. And their Xmas spending has been reduced to £100 per child because they're all going to Disneyland (USA) for Xmas.

There's no way that's coming from salary.

So my taxes are paying for most of it!

 

 

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I think the 2 children policy is perfect. It's come in faaaar too late, but I do agree you can't retrospectively inact it because the children suffer, and it's not their fault their parents are doing it for the money. I will just take time now to filter through.

The whole needs based benefit system is a clusterfcuk with huge 'unintended' pull factors towards those from abroad and those at home abusing it. Great in principle and probably would have worked 50 years ago when people had morals. 

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5 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

I think the 2 children policy is perfect. It's come in faaaar too late, but I do agree you can't retrospectively inact it because the children suffer, and it's not their fault their parents are doing it for the money. I will just take time now to filter through.

The whole needs based benefit system is a clusterfcuk with huge 'unintended' pull factors towards those from abroad and those at home abusing it. Great in principle and probably would have worked 50 years ago when people had morals. 

I argree.I would scrap the two children though and replace with a simple "children premium".Get it for the first then no more.The two child limit is already changing things though.I know a girl who has two to two different lads and is pregnant with a third.Shes probably going to get a termination because "i get no more credits".Suddenly a third child reduces your standard of living instead of increasing.Going forward you will see a lot less three children families.

If they continue the freeze on benefits then with the two child limit they should slowly reduce the problem.However its so generous at the moment that it will take a long time.

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I used to believe in these hard caps, but I changed my mind in recent years.

My partner had her first a month after finishing school. She didn't even have  a boyfriend/partner at the time, but her parents pressured her into keeping him - what do you do at 16? Her parents pretty much brought him up.

Later she met her last partner and had 2 children together, quite reasonable you might think. He left her and basically disappeared so no maintenance payments so she's left as  a single mother with 3 dependants.

Pretty hard under such circumstances looking after 2 young to find a job that pays enough to rent a house, pay all the bills etc.

You cut all the benefits the it's just the children who suffer as she receives about £70 a week on income support to pay (reduced) council tax, water, electric, gas and buy food.

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21 minutes ago, durhamborn said:

If they continue the freeze on benefits then with the two child limit they should slowly reduce the problem.However its so generous at the moment that it will take a long time.

I don't see how it's that generous really as each extra child increases the benefits payment by £13.70 a week, barely enough to buy food, clothes and all other the other little things schools and kids expect

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A friend who is a teacher told me when she started the other teachers would say about the amount of mums who start showing up pregnant when the child is about to leave for secondary school and they lose some benefit or something cant remember the exact thing not sure if its still the same

She laughed and didn't believe it then noticed a lot pregnant mums around that time that there kids where due to leave primary school

Personally i think 2 kid cap is right if you want more thats your choice and you should be able to take care of them

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4 minutes ago, DoINeedOne said:

Personally i think 2 kid cap is right if you want more thats your choice and you should be able to take care of them

Let's say you decide to have 4 kids and one parent leaves or dies?

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6 minutes ago, Wurzel Of Highbridge said:

Let's say you decide to have 4 kids and one parent leaves or dies?

I get your argument and understand what your saying as someone who lost there dad at a young age, There should be help for people but you cant deny that some people are taking the piss with benefits which then causes these cuts

Even a close friend of mine girlfriend had another kid because she didn't want to work and could claim XYZ extra even though she didn't want any more kids but it was that or get a job and spends her days having lunch with similar friends 

But the same argument for most things people take the piss and then everyone loses out

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12 minutes ago, DoINeedOne said:

But the same argument for most things people take the piss and then everyone loses out

Yeah this is the problem. There's not really a way of distinguishing people who fall on hard times from those that are taking the piss. If my partner did a moonlight flit and left me with the kids I'd really struggle, as I'd either have to quit work or pay a huge amount in childcare. Also children shouldn't grow up in poverty, but (beyond sinister sterilisation ideas and sweeping kids into care) how do you seperate helping the children from rewarding the parents?

Re the orginal poster's acquaintance there's probably things about their situation you don't know, as taking a huge bunch of kids to Disneyland via benefits seems like a stretch. Life insurance payout from the deceased partner? Inheritance? BTL empire? Bitcoins?

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I agree that there will always be those unproductive members of society who do not want to work. I have met many of them in my life time and am of the opinion that they are best left to their own devices on a minimal income.

Pulling those that' refuse to and don't want to work into the workplace is a drag on productivity and disrupting to those that want to work. Of course those that do want and are willing to work should be encouraged and have help available.

With high rent's and house prices there's always going to be a huge poverty trap at the bottom of society. Having kids places a huge risk on  becoming stuck in the trap.

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20 hours ago, fru-gal said:

Tax credits pays approx £55 per week per child so they would be getting a minimum of £68.70 per week for one child.

I see, so you would need to be employed to get these untold riches. I thought that Tax credits had been replaced with universal credit and minimum of 30 hours work and capped by the universal credit cap?

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On 12/12/2017 at 9:42 AM, DoINeedOne said:

A friend who is a teacher told me when she started the other teachers would say about the amount of mums who start showing up pregnant when the child is about to leave for secondary school and they lose some benefit or something cant remember the exact thing not sure if its still the same

She laughed and didn't believe it then noticed a lot pregnant mums around that time that there kids where due to leave primary school

Personally i think 2 kid cap is right if you want more thats your choice and you should be able to take care of them

I worked as an interventionist at my then local job centre many moons ago signing people on and it was so common to see a woman in her mid-40s turn up pregnant and as you say the age gap between the younger siblings and the new addition went right across the school age spectrum. Some were unemployed for so long that the original payment system had been superseded twice and their original date of perpetual dosserhood had been lost in the porting. This was back in 2003 and  as I remember the LMS (labour market system) held records back to the 80s. 

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On 12/12/2017 at 9:29 AM, Wurzel Of Highbridge said:

I used to believe in these hard caps, but I changed my mind in recent years.

My partner had her first a month after finishing school. She didn't even have  a boyfriend/partner at the time, but her parents pressured her into keeping him - what do you do at 16? Her parents pretty much brought him up.

Later she met her last partner and had 2 children together, quite reasonable you might think. He left her and basically disappeared so no maintenance payments so she's left as  a single mother with 3 dependants.

Pretty hard under such circumstances looking after 2 young to find a job that pays enough to rent a house, pay all the bills etc.

You cut all the benefits the it's just the children who suffer as she receives about £70 a week on income support to pay (reduced) council tax, water, electric, gas and buy food.

I sort of agree.

Im ok with a tax credit top up of 500/m providing one parent works 38h.

Id be ok with the 38h being split between both parents.

Id also have an option where a single parent can have up to 10 years paid to raise the kid. But they have to wait 5 years beyond srate retirement age before drawing a pension.

No benefits at all to none uk nationals unkess yheyve paid for 10 years. Then time limited.

No no eu migrant allowed in without a job paying 35k single, 55k family - bar some 2-5 visas for young, single people.

HB capped at 500/m.

There. See how ive fixed 95% of uks benefits.

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20 minutes ago, happyguy said:

why should anyone get any benefit for having a kid or kids

it is a lifestyle choice 

if you cannot afford kids don't have them 

+1

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On 12/12/2017 at 10:21 AM, deadasadodo said:

Yeah this is the problem. There's not really a way of distinguishing people who fall on hard times from those that are taking the piss. If my partner did a moonlight flit and left me with the kids I'd really struggle, as I'd either have to quit work or pay a huge amount in childcare. Also children shouldn't grow up in poverty, but (beyond sinister sterilisation ideas and sweeping kids into care) how do you seperate helping the children from rewarding the parents?

Re the orginal poster's acquaintance there's probably things about their situation you don't know, as taking a huge bunch of kids to Disneyland via benefits seems like a stretch. Life insurance payout from the deceased partner? Inheritance? BTL empire? Bitcoins?

I think you might be able to do it on a very local level, where you know people, but national level you cannot.

However if there was no safety net a lot of genuine cases would get help from family/charity.

(Also children do not have to have housing in expensive areas).

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On 12/12/2017 at 10:21 AM, deadasadodo said:

Yeah this is the problem. There's not really a way of distinguishing people who fall on hard times from those that are taking the piss.

A Citizen's Income for adults and scrapping Child Benefit as a separate benefit would do it, but would probably be politically unacceptable.

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On 12/12/2017 at 2:04 PM, longgone said:

In that wheel of fortune the purple and black should only remain. and maybe pink 

Why should old farts be allowed to double dip? Their "pension contributions" were spent on government services which they consumed in their youth.

"It's invested for the future" is a lie to fool absolute morons.

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On 1/3/2018 at 9:36 PM, Will! said:

A Citizen's Income for adults and scrapping Child Benefit as a separate benefit would do it, but would probably be politically unacceptable.

Didn't child benefit come in under Grodon Brown? That would date it post 1997. Why would it be politically unacceptable? Jeremy Corbyn has been in parliament since the early 80's. Was he complaining about a lack of child benefit back then?

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10 minutes ago, Uncle_Kenny said:

Didn't child benefit come in under Grodon Brown? That would date it post 1997. Why would it be politically unacceptable? Jeremy Corbyn has been in parliament since the early 80's. Was he complaining about a lack of child benefit back then?

Child Benefit (CB) in the UK was created in 1945, when repopulation and genuine child poverty were obvious concerns.  Neither of those are concerns now.

Politically, the problem with scrapping CB as a separate benefit would be accusations of returning to a 1945 level of child poverty.  Practically, rolling CB into a Citizen's Income wouldn't cause child poverty because the money that would have been spent on CB would be added to the Citizen's Income paid to every UK adult citizen.  The important difference would be that the amount of money paid to each adult wouldn't depend on their number of children so there would be no incentive to have more children for more money.

 

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There is probably an argument for rolling Child Benefit into Child Tax Credits as that would be a better way of limiting it to those on lower income than the current £50k limit. I'd also suggest that the £20/23k benefit cap should apply to in work benefits as well, £20k on top of your earned salary is equivalent to adding £30k to your salary.

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  • 407 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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