Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Thorn

Land Value Tax first mention on R4 Moneybox

Recommended Posts

Interesting discussion on their show today- a landowning farmer from Fife who is part of a group agitating for LVT to be introduced was asking for Land Value Tax to be introduced to replace all income taxes, national insurance as more tax would come in. Says the SNP is getting behind it. 

The lad from a Scottish Property Federation sounded like a rabbit in the headlights with no coherent reply except "It's not been proved yet that it would bring in as much tax".

The farmer owns a lot of land and insists he is a strong advocate of it and yes it will. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The farmers would be alright because although they would pay tax on the land (at the "agricultural land" rate), they would also be generating income by growing crops / grazing cattle to offset it. If LVT replaced income tax, etc. then this would encourage them to be efficient and reward those who were. The higher the yield, the more money they would be making.

The people who would lost big time from LVT would be the people who buy (or inherit) and hold. Unfortunately these people are usually very rich and very well connected.

That is the whole point of LVT. Land is a finite and fundamental resource - we should encourage its most efficient use, not allow a few hundred people hoard a massive proportion of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the classroom this is one of the best, if not the best, way(s) to raise revenue for the government for the many reasons posted on this forum down the line. 

The real issue though is adoption and perception. I've brought up this subject several times and even people priced out of the London housing market scream blue murder (maybe I'm slightly over exaggerating here). The real issue with it is that it is a salient tax like council tax. Most people would pay less tax in total but most people would see and feel it more.

As much as I am in favour of it I just can't see it ever getting enough political support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/24/robert-peston-interview-im-not-saying-britain-is-finished-but-our-current-problems-are-not-a-blip

The other side to this.Peston saying he thinks a universal income is certain.I agree with him it is,100% certain,its just a matter of when.The welfare system is one part of why our society is falling apart.Couple work,cant buy house,cant have children.Pregnant at 16 free house,dont need to work.That cant go on much longer.

If Labour grasp this and offer one they will win by a landslide.The Tories really really need to look at this asap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, adarmo said:

In the classroom this is one of the best, if not the best, way(s) to raise revenue for the government for the many reasons posted on this forum down the line. 

The real issue though is adoption and perception. I've brought up this subject several times and even people priced out of the London housing market scream blue murder (maybe I'm slightly over exaggerating here). The real issue with it is that it is a salient tax like council tax. Most people would pay less tax in total but most people would see and feel it more.

As much as I am in favour of it I just can't see it ever getting enough political support.

People seem to accept being taxed at source for working and focus their angst at taxes implemented otherwise. Even it makes them worse off.

I think that's the biggest hurdle. The hihstorical administrative choice for land related taxes isn't accidental.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dougless said:

I heard that and the landowners reasons seemed sound to me - a non land owner.  Its just been mentioned on Any Questions (Radio 4).

Interesting that some of the loudest applause of the show was for a policy to limit HPI but of course "nobody wants a crash" was the position of the politician and interesting and insightfully Dimbleby said no politician would go the electorate on a platform including policies designed to reduce the price of housing...I think the way he put it was that the electorate would give them a "very loud raspberry".  -  Tyranny of the majority.  The cause of our woes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, adarmo said:

The real issue though is adoption and perception. I've brought up this subject several times and even people priced out of the London housing market scream blue murder (maybe I'm slightly over exaggerating here). The real issue with it is that it is a salient tax like council tax. Most people would pay less tax in total but most people would see and feel it more.

As much as I am in favour of it I just can't see it ever getting enough political support.

I think introducing a Land Rental Value Tax as a replacement for Council Tax would be the most politically acceptable way of doing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Wayward said:

Interesting that some of the loudest applause of the show was for a policy to limit HPI but of course "nobody wants a crash" was the position of the politician and interesting and insightfully Dimbleby said no politician would go the electorate on a platform including policies designed to reduce the price of housing...I think the way he put it was that the electorate would give them a "very loud raspberry".  -  Tyranny of the majority.  The cause of our woes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

 

 

 

Feels like without it those of us who don't own a home are stuffed and kept down extremely well.

When it comes in those that do own their homes and land and live off our rent and taxes might be on the receiving end of incredible anger. 

It would be better to be brought in to prevent that outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Wayward said:

Interesting that some of the loudest applause of the show was for a policy to limit HPI but of course "nobody wants a crash" was the position of the politician and interesting and insightfully Dimbleby said no politician would go the electorate on a platform including policies designed to reduce the price of housing...I think the way he put it was that the electorate would give them a "very loud raspberry".  -  Tyranny of the majority.  The cause of our woes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

 

 

 

Until they are not the majority... Then the new minority may discover a new tyranny. Our politicians are too pygmy to head it off it seems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Land value tax allowing for lower income tax would boost the economy.

5 minutes ago, LittlePig said:

Until they are not the majority... Then the new minority may discover a new tyranny. Our politicians are too pygmy to head it off it seems.

Only 51% of the UK are homeowners, not the higher official figure which counts how many homes are owned (as opposed to how many own a home) to make it seem like more. No doubt many of the 51% would like to see tax burdens shifted also via LVT. A lot of respected economics and professionals etc. are advocates of LVT.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/08/03/if-only-we-had-a-land-value-tax/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, guest_northshore said:

People seem to accept being taxed at source for working and focus their angst at taxes implemented otherwise. Even it makes them worse off.

I think that's the biggest hurdle. The hihstorical administrative choice for land related taxes isn't accidental.

If it is taxed at source (PAYE) then you never see the money. So it doesn't feel so bad. If you are taxed after the money hits your account, then you are more likely to feel aggrieved that they are 'stealing' your money. Even more so if you have spent all your money that month and then the bill hits. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Will! said:

I think introducing a Land Rental Value Tax as a replacement for Council Tax would be the most politically acceptable way of doing it.

Can you give us a bit of an overview of how that might work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, adarmo said:

Can you give us a bit of an overview of how that might work?

House is valued, tax based upon that value, all goes in a big national pot and redistributed. Poor people with rubbish houses pay little, rich people with expensive houses pay lots. Local HPI applied each year based upon land registry figures and very localised postcodes (ie No1. Park Lane will probably have it's own postcode)

When someone in a village mentions selling their house, everyone becomes very interested in what they want for it. Feedback loop mitigates bubbles somewhat, ostracises those that pay a large hpi increase, so houses can't be priced high as any buyers know everyone will hate them.

Councils have no incentive to push hpi as it's national.

New build housing estates will no effect anywhere else as they'll have their own postcode, will be in competition with lower council tax areas for secondhand houses.

Edited by honkydonkey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, adarmo said:

Can you give us a bit of an overview of how that might work?

From http://www.labourland.org/what-is-land-value-tax/

Quote

What is Land Value Tax?

Most of the things we see around us were made by humanity. The buildings we live in, the vehicles we use, the clothes we wear and even most of the food we eat are set in their present form by human effort.

Land is completely different.

No human being has made land, and the value of a piece of land derives from such things as natural fertility, mineral deposits and its position in relation to public utilities, natural harbours, communications and population. Different pieces of land vary enormously in their value. An acre of land in the middle of a town, for example, may be worth many thousands of times as much as an acre of remote moorland. Therefore, a tax on land values is a fair tax, because the person who owns land derives benefit from something which he or she has not made.

The big idea

First off, the value of every piece of land in this country should be assessed. By ‘land’ we mean the site alone, not counting any improvements on the site. Thus, the value of any buildings, crops, drainage or anything else which people have put on, or done to, the site would be ignored.

Then, after the land has been valued, a tax should be fixed on the basis of that value. Of course this wouldn’t mean any more overall taxation, because the introduction of Land Value Taxation would permit other taxes to be reduced or, in some cases, to be abolished altogether.

The Valuation Office Agency could value land for its rental value, just as it currently values residential property for Council Tax banding or business property for its Business rates rental value.  Local authorities (LAs) could collect an LRVT just as they collect Council Tax or Business rates, with the same discretion they have at the moment for those who have difficulty paying.  In the first instance it would make sense for an LRVT to be revenue neutral compared to Council Tax and Business rates.

If an LRVT collected by LAs was successful then increasing the LRVT, scrapping a centrally collected tax such as National Insurance and the possibility of LA's sending taxpayers' money to central government (rather than the other way around as at present) could be explored.  If LAs collected tax for central government then central government might take more of an interest in the financial mismanagement that goes on at LA level.

Assigning the collection of an LRVT to LAs gives them an incentive to increase the rental value of land, for example by improving local infrastructure, granting planning permission and avoiding land blight. 

Edited by Will!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, durhamborn said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/24/robert-peston-interview-im-not-saying-britain-is-finished-but-our-current-problems-are-not-a-blip

The other side to this.Peston saying he thinks a universal income is certain.I agree with him it is,100% certain,its just a matter of when.The welfare system is one part of why our society is falling apart.Couple work,cant buy house,cant have children.Pregnant at 16 free house,dont need to work.That cant go on much longer.

If Labour grasp this and offer one they will win by a landslide.The Tories really really need to look at this asap.

universal income will just be the starting chokes then instead of zero it will be 12k. everything will rise to account for the new zero. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Richmond said:

If it is taxed at source (PAYE) then you never see the money. So it doesn't feel so bad. If you are taxed after the money hits your account, then you are more likely to feel aggrieved that they are 'stealing' your money. Even more so if you have spent all your money that month and then the bill hits. 

Similar psychology to discount coupons perhaps. Give people % off coupons and they buy stuff.  Drop the prices instead for the same savings and they don’t buy stuff. JC Penney tried this and ended up going back to the coupons / overpriced method.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2013/09/27/a-strategic-mistake-that-haunts-j-c-penney/#55cc71fb134c

I think one of the biggest mistakes an intelligent person can make is to assume that what is easily obvious to them will naturally be so to others.

Edited by Arpeggio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

I think one of the biggest mistakes an intelligent person can make is to assume that what is easily obvious to them will naturally be so to others.

You just found out why this website exists . flip the coin and then you can exploit the simpletons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Money will move out of the states control in our lifetimes. Seems crazy but it will happen 100%. When it does the state will be left with no option but to raise taxes through fixed assets that can't be moved such as land.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, doomed said:

Money will move out of the states control in our lifetimes. Seems crazy but it will happen 100%. When it does the state will be left with no option but to raise taxes through fixed assets that can't be moved such as land.

globalisation automation the online world  

going forwards is the new backwards  ;)

there will be an event to make this more palatable for the plebs 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Will! said:

From http://www.labourland.org/what-is-land-value-tax/

The Valuation Office Agency could value land for its rental value, just as it currently values residential property for Council Tax banding or business property for its Business rates rental value.  Local authorities (LAs) could collect an LRVT just as they collect Council Tax or Business rates, with the same discretion they have at the moment for those who have difficulty paying.  In the first instance it would make sense for an LRVT to be revenue neutral compared to Council Tax and Business rates.

If an LRVT collected by LAs was successful then increasing the LRVT, scrapping a centrally collected tax such as National Insurance and the possibility of LA's sending taxpayers' money to central government (rather than the other way around as at present) could be explored.  If LAs collected tax for central government then central government might take more of an interest in the financial mismanagement that goes on at LA level.

Assigning the collection of an LRVT to LAs gives them an incentive to increase the rental value of land, for example by improving local infrastructure, granting planning permission and avoiding land blight. 

I asked the question about RVLT (Rental Value Land Tax) and you still manage to contradict whats-his-face by clearly stating that someone far smarter than any of us had already posted on the internet that Local Authorities do have an incentive to increase land values. FYI I'm with you on this, it's probably the second best argument for LVT.

Furthermore you're one up on Thorn for being able to use Google and I see Venger has inspired you (possibly) to use cut and paste. 

 

FYI - I like LVT, but as I said already...... I think it would be impossible to get past the electorate due to it being so salient. 

I sort of like this idea though. If one is valuing the rental of the land only then what possible value would the land my house sits on have rental wise? Are we not making this far far far more complicated than LVT would already be to implement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, doomed said:

Money will move out of the states control in our lifetimes. Seems crazy but it will happen 100%. When it does the state will be left with no option but to raise taxes through fixed assets that can't be moved such as land.

and this will happen 100%

I have a question though. When will this 100% happen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 406 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.